Canonical Working On Mir's Performance, Mir On Mir

[Siekacz]

I propose good GUI and even better CLI - we have to think about Bash replacement, no matter how powerful it is (it certainly is!), its design sucks a lot. I tend to write scripts in Python because of simplicity and readability issues with Bash.
Good GUI is a must, because computers aren't made for fixing them, configuring and setting up servers. When you want to do non-tech things, like editing documents, movies, audio files or pictures you need a good UI.

[erendorn]

Have you seen a tablet where you have to use the CLI? Most tablets out there run a Linux-based OS.

Well this does suggest that in order to match Linux and a big marketshare, good GUI/no CLI required somehow help.

[dee.]

1) I never said to remove cli support. Just make sure that there is AT LEAST some kind of GUI fallback for people who like to have they're work done in a few clicks and to have it REMEMBERED AS DEFAULT- the emulator example is a very nice one... each had a - in the command line. if you wanted all of them you would go crazy writing for 40sec all the options to just RUN A FREAKING GAME.

Who forces you to write them everytime? Write a script. If you need a GUI for an emulator... make it yourself. It's not that hard, and you can share it with all those newbies who need GUIs. Be a hero. Make a contribution.

2) EDID problems are hardware. But on windows i can go in a panel, tell the panel that monitor have a resolution of 1280x1024 and that's it. When there is no edid it set it on a default safe res/freq and then it gives you all the options avaible to the graphic card, so you just select what you want. to do the same in linux i had to write long pointless cli command, make a script out of them and pray that next time i reboot the script works fine.
Linux is not windows... lol same argument. Same attitude that locked linux on a niche for years, thank god there is someone who really wants to get any kind of linux out there where real people does not care if you use cli to set up that dmix(i work in the music field too, i don't even know what that means), but would be glad if they could have a simple mixer(xfce does not have that, it's either the keyboard fn or the full pulseaudio config) that can be set to output audio to the second graphic card for all streams.(xfce bug maybe, on unity it does that.)

So you're saying, that in order to gain marketshare, Linux must become the same as windows? Lol, no thanks. I'd rather use a niche OS that gives me open source and freedom from NSA surveillance than a mainstream BigBrotherOS.

And besides, you're wrong.

Who told you that you won't have all your CLI happiness.I never said: KILL THE TERMINAL WITH FIRE.you linux users aren't the masses. You can't even make the 0,4% in terms of market share(i mean, users like you). You see, there is an elegant way to do things, there is a powerful one, there is an easy one. I just want the option for the easy one. Let the powerful one be there. just i don't want to have to do a tedious long list of command line things to burn a cd like i used to. And.. i think that typing on a tablet is very, very ergonomically fucked up.

Have you seen a tablet where you have to use the CLI? Most tablets out there run a Linux-based OS.

If you want GUIs for things, make them yourself. Share with others. Be useful. Not that difficult.

yeah right... GUIs makes no sense at all. Why having them??? it was so nice back then. I tell you something that nobody ever told you and you sure as hell never noticed: PEOPLE-ARE-LAZY. They don't want to learn a complicated way to do stuff. They want to actually do stuff, and do it in the fastest way possible. It happens that is the gui and using the mouse instead of typing for longs periods of time.It means that i don't have to maybe find a way to do things through an obscure set of things in a strange language that sounds like alien, they want to have a nice panel that sets up the options with them cleary explained so that they can do on their own easily. It happens also that i want to learn how to do things in the smallest time possible. If a bike had 8 different brakes and 70 gears,that might have a scope for a pro biker, a normal person that just wants to do a mile and have a nice ride looking around won't care to learn them ,they would want the normal 2 brake-1 gear version, and they will trash the 8 brakes bike without a second though. In fact it seems to me that the most used(and sold) bikes have no shift gear at all. Have you ever asked yourself why?(it's an interesting parallel too.)

Computers are not bikes. When there are problems with a windows installation, the average punter is in trouble no matter if there's a GUI or not. They don't know what to do anyway. You can't solve every problem by adding big shiny buttons on it.

It's not about the development of the wayland. i wasn't talking about wayland alone: think about gnome, systemd, xorg, toolkit provider. They were asked to change and have all a common release schedule to be able to deliver stable stuff in an ordered manner( how many times having a new version of xorg too late in the distro development have broken things ?) instead of the chaos right now(everyone releases as they see fit. not bad by itself, but not very reliable when you're a software house trying to aim at a moving target that can be at multiple places in time in multiple spaces)

Yeah and why should every project have to do their things the way Canonical wants? They were here long before Canonical, they do things with other distros in mind, not just Canonical. The world doesn't revolve around Ubuntu. Ask yourself, why does every other company, every other distro and project manage to co-operate with these projects and toolkits, but Canonical is the only one that has problems? If you find yourself fighting the world, it doesn't matter how correct you think you are. You simply need to play by the rules of the sandbox or pick up your toys and go home.

[sireangelus]

Because there are things that simply can't be configured via a user interface. I dare you to configure ALSA to use dmix over multiple outputs without learning the configuration syntax, and then come up with a UI that allows that amount of flexibility.

Sit a professional athlete on a bicycle for the first time in his life => he'll fall off. Same principle, to every tool there is a learning curve.



Where have you been the past four years?Wayland took the time they needed to get things right. Mir built directly on that, changing next to nothing. Also full wayland desktops will be here within the year, so touting Mir as a finally complete solution is BS.

They can simply ignore it and let canonical patch their asses off. My bet is on this approach.

1) I never said to remove cli support. Just make sure that there is AT LEAST some kind of GUI fallback for people who like to have they're work done in a few clicks and to have it REMEMBERED AS DEFAULT- the emulator example is a very nice one... each had a - in the command line. if you wanted all of them you would go crazy writing for 40sec all the options to just RUN A FREAKING GAME.

2) EDID problems are hardware. But on windows i can go in a panel, tell the panel that monitor have a resolution of 1280x1024 and that's it. When there is no edid it set it on a default safe res/freq and then it gives you all the options avaible to the graphic card, so you just select what you want. to do the same in linux i had to write long pointless cli command, make a script out of them and pray that next time i reboot the script works fine.
Linux is not windows... lol same argument. Same attitude that locked linux on a niche for years, thank god there is someone who really wants to get any kind of linux out there where real people does not care if you use cli to set up that dmix(i work in the music field too, i don't even know what that means), but would be glad if they could have a simple mixer(xfce does not have that, it's either the keyboard fn or the full pulseaudio config) that can be set to output audio to the second graphic card for all streams.(xfce bug maybe, on unity it does that.)

Uh what? Listen, if you want windows, go use windows. Problem solved. LINUX IS NOT WINDOWS, and we (most Linux users) are happy about that, because we don't want windows.

Package management in Linux is lightyears better than windows installers and registries and all that bullshit by any objective measure. Besides, what problem do you have installing packages from the internet? On my Linux OS, I can download a .deb file, doubleclick on it in my file manager, which brings up GDebi and lets me install the package with ONE CLICK OF THE MOUSE, which is actually LESS than in windows installers. You're making up imaginary problems.

Having all apps be self-contained is stupid, it's waste of resources. If you want macos, use macos.

Who told you that you won't have all your CLI happiness.I never said: KILL THE TERMINAL WITH FIRE.you linux users aren't the masses. You can't even make the 0,4% in terms of market share(i mean, users like you). You see, there is an elegant way to do things, there is a powerful one, there is an easy one. I just want the option for the easy one. Let the powerful one be there. just i don't want to have to do a tedious long list of command line things to burn a cd like i used to. And.. i think that typing on a tablet is very, very ergonomically fucked up.

Because we don't have to assume that people are idiots. Wikipedia exists. Even idiots can copy-paste instructions from the internet to the command line or download premade scripts that they can put on their desktop as links. For fscks sake, it's not rocket science.

This whole windows paradigm of making everything hold your hand at the cost of functionality is a shitty one. It doesn't do any favors to the user, it's better for the user to learn how to do things rather than just blindly click through text boxes that they don't understand. If average people can learn to use spreadsheets, they can learn to use the CLI. Heck, back in the early 90s almost everything was done in DOS, and regular, non-tech-savvy people had no problems running programs or doing their work or copying files.

yeah right... GUIs makes no sense at all. Why having them??? it was so nice back then. I tell you something that nobody ever told you and you sure as hell never noticed: PEOPLE-ARE-LAZY. They don't want to learn a complicated way to do stuff. They want to actually do stuff, and do it in the fastest way possible. It happens that is the gui and using the mouse instead of typing for longs periods of time.It means that i don't have to maybe find a way to do things through an obscure set of things in a strange language that sounds like alien, they want to have a nice panel that sets up the options with them cleary explained so that they can do on their own easily. It happens also that i want to learn how to do things in the smallest time possible. If a bike had 8 different brakes and 70 gears,that might have a scope for a pro biker, a normal person that just wants to do a mile and have a nice ride looking around won't care to learn them ,they would want the normal 2 brake-1 gear version, and they will trash the 8 brakes bike without a second though. In fact it seems to me that the most used(and sold) bikes have no shift gear at all. Have you ever asked yourself why?(it's an interesting parallel too.)

Bullshit. Canonical had plenty of time to help in Wayland development, they sat on their asses and did nothing. Then suddenly turned coat and released huge FUD and slander about wayland. The ones who didn't collaborate are Canonical. Don't try to rewrite history.

It's not about the development of the wayland. i wasn't talking about wayland alone: think about gnome, systemd, xorg, toolkit provider. They were asked to change and have all a common release schedule to be able to deliver stable stuff in an ordered manner( how many times having a new version of xorg too late in the distro development have broken things ?) instead of the chaos right now(everyone releases as they see fit. not bad by itself, but not very reliable when you're a software house trying to aim at a moving target that can be at multiple places in time in multiple spaces)

[dee.]

because it's as we are used to do.

Hey there baby duck, miss your mommy?

and because for any number of reasons not all the available programs in earth are on the package manager. Even more so for proprietary stuff. We can't have linux go worldwide without a distro-independent (or at least package-manager independent) way of installing programs and drivers.. Even more so, when to install a driver you have 95% of the time go to the command line(windows had GUI driver installs for like what... 15 years?) Or should we go the phone/tablet way and have all software go through a gate?

Uh... hey... install drivers, what? Linux comes with all the drivers you need. The only driver you would ever need to install is the (proprietary) GPU driver and guess what, even that can be done in the package manager. If you need drivers from some specialized hardware, odds are you won't care if it has a GUI installer because if you use specialized hardware you are not an average user and you'll know what you're doing (or hire someone to do it for you).

Also, we already have distro-independent ways to install programs. If you go buy games from Humble Bundle for example, a lot of them come as install scripts, which you run once, and they ask you where you want to install the game, and then you're done. You're making up imaginary problems.

And yes, most software comes in through package manager. That's fine and great, because Linux distros also allow you to install software by other means if you want to. The windows way of doing things isn't the only way, and by far isn't the best.

[dh04000]

As I see, the mesa devs have neither responded to nor commited the proposed Mir backend.

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/mesa-dev/2013-March/035714.html

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/tree/src/egl/drivers/dri2

BTW, did Canonical actually expressed regrets for their blatant lies?

This is just like the gnome issue they had before. People bitch and complain that Ubuntu does contribute back, but no one ever takes thier patches. Thier gnome patches were ignored, so they HAD to fork gnome 2's panel. Thier gnome patches were ignored, so they HAD to make Unity. Thier debian patches are ignored, so they CAN'T stay compatible with Debian. Thier mesa patches are ignored so thier drivers WON'T be compatible.

And people will scream and yell that they do nothing to contribute and stay compatible, while locking them out from trying to be part of the ecosystem. Hypocrits.

(I will not respond to people asking for sources, use google)

[sireangelus]

EDID problems are due to hardware. Otherwise even X now doesn't need any manual configuration, it just works. And no, it's much, much easier to install programs on most Linux distributions than it is on Windows. Why would you go to Google, search for the program name, find the main page for the program, find the download page, find your OS version and your architecture, download an installer, run the installer, press next a bunch of times, then delete the installer (or let it clutter your disk for all eternity)? How about opening the package manager, entering the program name, putting a check mark on it and pressing Continue? And if it's not in the official repositories, at least on openSUSE, all you need to do is go to the central software download page, search for the program, press 1-Click Install, then choose whether to preserve the repository or not, and you're done.

because it's as we are used to do. and because for any number of reasons not all the available programs in earth are on the package manager. Even more so for proprietary stuff. We can't have linux go worldwide without a distro-independent (or at least package-manager independent) way of installing programs and drivers.. Even more so, when to install a driver you have 95% of the time go to the command line(windows had GUI driver installs for like what... 15 years?) Or should we go the phone/tablet way and have all software go through a gate?

[GreatEmerald]

why do i have to use the CLI to define a new monitor or force a resolution when the EDID fails?Why can't the process of downloading and installing something from the internet is always a pain in the ass and we can't have double click next-next-next-end packages?I still thinks that the basic macosx app system(the one that all apps are self-conteined) is an easier way, but i would settle for that.

EDID problems are due to hardware. Otherwise even X now doesn't need any manual configuration, it just works. And no, it's much, much easier to install programs on most Linux distributions than it is on Windows. Why would you go to Google, search for the program name, find the main page for the program, find the download page, find your OS version and your architecture, download an installer, run the installer, press next a bunch of times, then delete the installer (or let it clutter your disk for all eternity)? How about opening the package manager, entering the program name, putting a check mark on it and pressing Continue? And if it's not in the official repositories, at least on openSUSE, all you need to do is go to the central software download page, search for the program, press 1-Click Install, then choose whether to preserve the repository or not, and you're done.

[Serafean]

Why the hell would i want to write a script to do things i can do with clicks???? let the cli have still the power it has today. But godsake, why would anyone, especially new user and not tech-savy even KNOW what the hell a script is?????

Because there are things that simply can't be configured via a user interface. I dare you to configure ALSA to use dmix over multiple outputs without learning the configuration syntax, and then come up with a UI that allows that amount of flexibility.

Ubuntu aims at people.The one that (like a friend of mine) picks up a android aosp phone and can't unlock it.And i can assure you that she's neither dumb nor a computer ignorant(she nows her way around a pc quite well, even if she does not know the inner workings or does not know what a driver is), she's one of the brightest people i know.

Sit a professional athlete on a bicycle for the first time in his life => he'll fall off. Same principle, to every tool there is a learning curve.

Mir and unity will be ready in a year. How many years it is that we are waiting for wayland to magically appear and free us from the X.Org monster???? Ok, it's been based on SOME work of wayland. A single library/backend that makes it possible to directly use android drivers. And the whole unity/mir effort? in a year they will deliver. They can't afford the mistake. Wayland instead takes the long and lazy road: the devs are in no hurry to finish the project, because they don't have a corporation that needs that

Where have you been the past four years?Wayland took the time they needed to get things right. Mir built directly on that, changing next to nothing. Also full wayland desktops will be here within the year, so touting Mir as a finally complete solution is BS.

Fair enough. But where's the review?

There hasn't been a single reply.
Doesn't look like the mesa devs are looking forward to this...

They can simply ignore it and let canonical patch their asses off. My bet is on this approach.

[Akka]

I'd say you're being a little paranoid, but seeing what Microsoft has done in Windows 8.1 blatantly copying Unity smart scopes, you might not be far out.

I have not tried smart scopes but to me it look like a regular combined desktop and local search with filters?