Canonical Working On Mir's Performance, Mir On Mir

[erendorn]

An emulator is not a game. Just like an OS is not a game even if it allows you to play games running under it. Mednafen is the most advanced emulator for the generation(s) of consoles it supports, it supports a lot of different consoles (NES, SNES, gameboy/GBC/GBA, Sega Mastersystem/megadrive, and a few others), it has a great set of features - the developers are focusing on providing a powerful, functional, and well supported emulator that provides damn near perfect emulation on the various platforms it emulates, so if they don't have the time to give you a GUI... not that big a problem. Heck, if you want a GUI so badly, go offer your services, offer to write and maintain one, or stop complaining.

1) I fail to see your point the "emulator is not a game" thing sorry :/

2) I write open source programs on my free time, with GUI and CLI interfaces (both if it makes sense). I've donated to the developer of an open source emulator, with GUI. But I just can't write or sponsor everything I would need in the world. So I also complain. Not about what people do (if you're not paid, you code what you want), but about the "CLI is enough for anybody"/"Requiring a manual is ok" attitude.

[brosis]

you miss again the point. The REAL WORLD is proprietary.

If you continue in this matter my ass will fall off from laugh! This two sentences constitute exactly your own fault!
You know, "REAL WORLD" is nothing than a bunch of people like you and me; so essentially you are trying to impose your own "WORLD" upon mine which will fail.

Can I destroy your argument directly? Okay, what will you do if CIA primary mass-espionage and intelligence tool would be running entirely on opensource software ? (although top secret). Yes, I understand, CIA are not "REAL". Hahaha

I mean, nearly every software that I use is opensource, from gaming to manufacturing & ERP. Welcome to REAL WORLD, I guess.

This is why i'm calling what you want a utopia. It's better to have linux supported by proprietary and slowly introduce a change in their ways( i always said that if i ever have become the sole dictator of a big nation, one of the laws i would make is that all software must be released under gpl2.0 after it becomes 2 years old , but you could still make a new version with significant change and use a EULA as strict as you want; So you can keep your new software license-only and still make it so old users can stay with what they paid for and have it supported indipendently, if you want it to be legal in my country; that's the same as what you envision.So in this example, Wow servers,if they are located in my country, and clients up until the Cataclysm would be gpl-2.0. )

No, I entirely don't wont to have any proprietary at all.
I want GPL3 and later. I don't want 2 year old outdated brick thrown out as unsupported outdated GPL2. By the way, there is no such thing as "GPL2", there is only GPL and its lastest revision is 3.
I want commercial entries to either completely adapt development model onto GPL; or if they don't manage that - to use EULA, but be diligent, self-contained, polite and reasonable. Either way, the choice what to use lies on buyer and if buyer is smart enough any EULA is deemed unstable in the long run, so why invest in it in the first place? Because if opensource project is closed regardless of reasons, its code will still be here to reuse and build upon. For proprietary - this is in essence purchase of rights to use software under serious restrictions. This is why I personally prefer to support projects giving me full rights and being completely open on their state.

I don't play WoW, but Blizzard would be perfectly fine completely GPLing WoW, both client and server, while requiring payment for comfort playing, server maintenance, ongoing development patches - stuff that people really okay to pay for. If anyone is here unable to pay, well then set up your own server and spend your time maintaining it. After while you may very well join Blizzard as server admin.
But they can go on doing it in proprietary way, personally I don't care - because I would need WINE for that, would risk to being banned due to Blizzard warden, plus normal "wasting time and money". Hence, I am not into MMORPG... But I certainly don't like them rushing in like you did, posting requirements to support their proprietary crap like major bosses on top of the shoulders of other opensource developers that will have to do the homework for them.

The fact is this. If proprietary"crap" does not support linux, and if linux does not make life easy for the average joe, linux won't take off.

No, the fact is there is joe and joe looks for solutions to his problems by means of software.
Linux will take off, if it has projects that provide acceptable solutions to joe. How this projects function, how they are being founded, what development model they use - its their own sole choice and they will fight over joe. So if proprietary crap does not support Linux, and Linux is joe's platform of choice for obvious to joe reasons, proprietary crap will not get joe' money. Nothing else matters for proprietary other than getting money from joe. If joe is also a picky customer, then commercial entity producing software for joe will inevitably be forced to look for ways to use opensource development.
So common, joe, start giving a damn to make the world a better place.

Fix the points i wrote about, and it will. Which is exactly what canonical is trying to do. I'm defending their choices and pointing out why they make sense for them, for their scope, for their target audience and their business model.You can live with stallman in your happy utopic world of having everything FOSS: not happening. Not in the next 20 years.Unless there is a change in the attidude in the linux dev world where you compromise. Even the linux kernel compromises... won't you at least be able to?

It won't, if Linux is to follow your points, then it will loose its uniqueness. You know, look at BSD and MacOSX, compare, learn.
Canonical is essentially trying to destroy its community, a lot of people quit using them. With recent move, they are isolating themselves, instead of building upon opensource, they use opensource to build just another microsoft-ish empire; instead of collaborating as a player, they isolate and require others to do bugfixing for them.
In 2010-2011 Shuttleworth was unaware enough to drop the line that Ubuntu is opencore; immediately denying and hiding this afterwards.
What choices do you defend? Amazon malware? Unity? Mir? Always-broken KDE? Low-quality package selection? Absence of GUI tools to configure the system? Wide availability of closed source applications in Ubuntu Store instead of motivating partners to develop within opensource model? Where is this "ubuntu" definition suddenly gone?
Unlike Canonical, Stallman never change - he was always fair, direct and freedom fighter, and he still is. What he forgot to add are proposals how to make GPL-licensed software profitable, but I think he left that intentionally blank so that other people define how to monetize it.
So, i already live within "Stallman utopia" by your definition since ... 6 years? Works just fine for me

Why are you so against option and freedom of installing what i want on my system, and provide an easy and standard way to do that, provide an easy way to set my system up, and give business an option to jumpstart an ecosystem that could really change the world as a whole. By opposing this change, you are making Android a simple substitute for Windows/MacOS, it's slightly better, but still is no gnu-linux, nor it has the freedom you so much hunger for.
I still don't know why OpenSUSE - i believe it was 11.10- wouldn't want to play nicely with the repos. I had the same behaviour both on virtualbox and on a separate machin.
I'm on Xubuntu mainly for the software and forum support,in particular the PPA system.

No, I am surely not for dictating you what you want to install in your system, on the contrary - you are trying to do exactly that.
Freedom of one ends with freedom of another, you can't have it both ways; which is why I am for freedom by restriction of taking freedom away.
If you are for other type of freedom, where one can do anything - thats not freedom, its anarchy. Usually the "REAL WORLD" definition of it is SLAVERY.

That said I am for GPL view on things, but I am not to restrict what people want to run; if closed source behaves, I have no problem using that - although it feels just wrong. By behaving, I mean exactly NOT-trying to reform whole linux to make it a proprietary bitch (rephrasing of John Romero slogan).
For example - Flash is gone, HTML5 is here. Is it good? Yes, it is. Did content developers loose jobs? No, they didn't. And so on.

about the WIFI problem, i'm talking about, having it installed, and putting in the WIFI password(even linus ranted about it). Just so you know, windows does not require Root privileges for installing drivers for 2 reasons: the first one is that they (if you use x64) require certification, or the kernel will refuse to run them-- if a driver installs itself in some forced way, the next boot the system refuses to load it with a blue screen error. Second is that the installation is done in background automatically, pulling from the windows update repository the right driver for the device so you can have basic functionality.Installing a software to separately manage the device requires root.Also, fedora and ubuntu do not require the root password to connect to a new wireless. My guess is that it has something to do with dhcp and iwconfig/ifconfig.s

Perhaps. I dislike this a lot, although I guess the decision to go all-blobby for 802.11n and up was due to remove ability to control signal strength, thus violating local regulations. Which is ugly one. I am for WIFI police, that could drive-by, detect and issue a bill for violation of regulations.
So, right now Atheros and Intel are my definite heroes.

is a disaster because you don't make money out of it. Facebook and Google are proprietary software running all around open source one. Look at how steam is playing nicely with opensource- even providing patches to the linux intel drivers and developing the SDL. This is the kind of ecosystem i envision. Everyone wins.

You can make money without being evil. Does not apply entirely to Steam, but.. at least they behave well in the sandbox.

And so that you know, if you count out VB5 lessons in my high school, i never was a dev. i'm just a user and as i am a user i want my tools to help me doing what i want, not being in the way.

If you are not a developer, either become one, or get any other job (to pay for developer time of your opensource project), or at least help debugging/reporting. Not crying around.
Thats a reason why girls are not allowed onboard.

[dee.]

point taken, but the basic idea still remains, provide a standard enviroment to build apps on it.

Incidentally, Tizen, Firefox OS, KDE Plasma and I think also Ubuntu touch and webOS (if that project is still alive) are actually implementing something like this, a standard, common API for app development. Additionally, at least Tizen and Sailfish will also support running Android apps via a compatibility layer.

Apart from competitive things that i might agree on, aren't we taking the conspirancies a little too high? aren't you a little paranoid? Aren't we taking the verizon scandal out of proportion?

Again... are you living in a subterranean barrel? I'm not talking about Verizon, I'm talking about PRISM and how NSA spies everything you write on Google, Facebook, Skype, etc. Snowden? NSA leaks? Ring a bell?

Oh what the hell, if I have to spoonfeed all the links to you...

http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance

http://techrights.org/2013/06/07/nsa-exposed/

http://techrights.org/2013/06/04/surveillance-industrial-complex/

It's funny, people used to call me paranoid for not using Facebook. They're no longer saying that, now everyone KNOWS that Facebook is being spied on by NSA. It's not paranoia if you're actually being spied. Conspiracy? Hell yeah it is, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

Windows 8 tells microsoft about every program you install. Wanna bet that data will be instantly available for NSA?

http://log.nadim.cc/?p=78

Now every single things that is connected reports to the NSA? What about any blog/site/server platform? How do you now that even phoronix does not have to report silently to the NSA? Why you use that as an excuse ?

It seems you are really fond of strawman arguments. Are you an idiot? Do I have to spell it out for you?

No one has been claiming that "every single thing that is connected reports to the NSA". However, it is a fact, that every Google service, Facebook, every Microsoft service, Skype, Yahoo, Apple - all these send everything you write in their services to NSA. It is reality, and you might want to close your eyes and claim it isn't true, because it's scary as hell. But that doesn't change the fact that it is happening, right now. But only Microsoft embeds surveillance onto the OS level with Windows 8.

If those hacker only would have bothered to turn off the OS telemetry that tells how many times people click on the start menu to give usage stats so that they can improve UI. The options are there, you just need to disable them( and those are asked at install time, in the first reboot. if these "hackers " do not bother to read them, it's not my fault.. isn't it your phylosophi?). And a lot of the telemetry is saved on your account so that settings and stuff are syncronized across devices.

This has nothing to do with anything. But don't let me stop you, go on making apologies for Microsoft and spouting rhetoric. What's next... "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear"?

And i'm a realist. If i need a piece of hardware , i go for the best i can find. Make me a pixel chrometablet with bay-trail where i can install both xubuntu and android, with detachable keyboard and double battery, and i'm sold.

You're not a realist, you're a conformist. If you care about ethics, you don't buy microsoft products. It's as simple as that.

It does not kill Xorg and log me in the VT. That's what's needed when you download the nvidia driver from it's site, where you expect it to be(gamers will want the latest, they won't care about stability within reason.) Manually killing the Login manager is not an option.

If people want cutting-edge drivers, then they can use a cutting-edge distro. People who install cutting-edge drivers sure as hell won't have problems with a few CLI commands. That's no longer the "average person" you were talking about. The average person doesn't care what driver or how new it is, as long as it works.

At least they will start porting their apps to linux. It's a start. And Ubuntu is becoming the standard de facto in terms of linux desktop.

That won't last long.

i'm a user. I don't care to write it myself. I EXPECT it to be there when i'm going to use it.

Good luck with that.

[sireangelus]

so, i want to have a sum of what i wantand finally, i see someone able to reason, with it's own ideas but almost able to reason.)
Gui options. Even simple ones. I do not hate cli, in fact i do a lot of things in it. But sometimes it's frustrating.

Give devs an SDK. Something that will be stable and universal across distros, that allows them to distribuite packages without being package manager dependent.I think it's a win for both proprietary and open source world.


to answer the laugh at my real world, the real world is what everybody uses. They use an open source browser, proprietary games, on a proprietary system or at best a partially open source one.Market share makes what the real world is.

As someone else posted before, Canonical tried to play nice. They wanted their own patches to be upstream. Look at the whole GNOME mess.How many times did that happen

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/shuttleworth-defends-ubuntus-linux-contributions/10726

http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/07/30/red-hat-canonical-and-gnome-contributions/

[sireangelus]

Incidentally, Tizen, Firefox OS, KDE Plasma and I think also Ubuntu touch and webOS (if that project is still alive) are actually implementing something like this, a standard, common API for app development. Additionally, at least Tizen and Sailfish will also support running Android apps via a compatibility layer.

i've stated that. but it would be nice to have something cross-distro

Again... are you living in a subterranean barrel? I'm not talking about Verizon, I'm talking about PRISM and how NSA spies everything you write on Google, Facebook, Skype, etc. Snowden? NSA leaks? Ring a bell?

Oh what the hell, if I have to spoonfeed all the links to you...

http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance

http://techrights.org/2013/06/07/nsa-exposed/

http://techrights.org/2013/06/04/surveillance-industrial-complex/

It's funny, people used to call me paranoid for not using Facebook. They're no longer saying that, now everyone KNOWS that Facebook is being spied on by NSA. It's not paranoia if you're actually being spied. Conspiracy? Hell yeah it is, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

PRISM has been blown out of proportion. It's a big deal, but all the same, if you're american you should be demonstrating and protesting with your own senator. You can't blame a system for doing something when you don't have a choice. You think that an open source facebook wouldn't be subjected to the same data collection?It would have, and it would be forced to silence. So actually you are saying an old truth: the only computer safe is a powered off one. Those companies ARE the internet. The one the masses uses.

Windows 8 tells microsoft about every program you install. Wanna bet that data will be instantly available for NSA?

http://log.nadim.cc/?p=78

onestly? if they were logging my keyboard i might get upset. Anonymous usage statistics of my computer, not that much.

It seems you are really fond of strawman arguments. Are you an idiot? Do I have to spell it out for you?

No one has been claiming that "every single thing that is connected reports to the NSA". However, it is a fact, that every Google service, Facebook, every Microsoft service, Skype, Yahoo, Apple - all these send everything you write in their services to NSA. It is reality, and you might want to close your eyes and claim it isn't true, because it's scary as hell. But that doesn't change the fact that it is happening, right now. But only Microsoft embeds surveillance onto the OS level with Windows 8.

They are also surveilling direct traffic. So this post is actually monitored while it makes it's way towards phoronix forums.Don't be so insurrectional or they might trace you down and get you in your sleep.

T

his has nothing to do with anything. But don't let me stop you, go on making apologies for Microsoft and spouting rhetoric. What's next... "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear"?

Nope. I stand against any kind of privacy violation, but you can bet that what i want to hide i do very well.

You're not a realist, you're a conformist. If you care about ethics, you don't buy microsoft products. It's as simple as that.

Nope,wrong one.I care about ethics until is possible. When being ethical is not possible anymore, i start using my brain and i do what suits me best. So i might be an opportunist.

If people want cutting-edge drivers, then they can use a cutting-edge distro. People who install cutting-edge drivers sure as hell won't have problems with a few CLI commands. That's no longer the "average person" you were talking about. The average person doesn't care what driver or how new it is, as long as it works.

Nope. There is a huge difference between installing a program from the internet with a gui and having to mess with the cli.But it seems that this difference is baffling to you.

That won't last long.

in your own utopic world, yeah. The rate of adoption says otherwise.

Good luck with that.

i'm actually having a very good luck with that using windows. And if i can't/won't switch over linux and i'm a fairly educated member of the computer science society, i don't think that many other people would. Cause to me using linux is sometimes frustrating and limiting.

[Vim_User]

It does not kill Xorg and log me in the VT.

How should it do that? Or do you think the installer can magically guess your password? Haven't you said you are a realist?

And Ubuntu is becoming the standard de facto in terms of linux desktop.

For professional software RHEL is still the de facto standard. No Mir on RHEL means: no professional software for Mir.

I EXPECT it to be there when i'm going to use it.

And the is the flaw in your attitude. Most distros and most open source software are made by volunteers, in their free time. Unless you start to pay them you are not entitled to expect anything.

[sireangelus]

How should it do that? Or do you think the installer can magically guess your password? Haven't you said you are a realist?

I was talking about the Login manager.

For professional software RHEL is still the de facto standard. No Mir on RHEL means: no professional software for Mir.

Are you sure about that. RHEL is the de facto server standard.

And the is the flaw in your attitude. Most distros and most open source software are made by volunteers, in their free time. Unless you start to pay them you are not entitled to expect anything.

i think that if i was a dev, i would be way more happy to know that my user base can be counted in the hundreds of milions instead of the hundreds of thousands, and you can do that by being able to satisfy the largest possible audience. It means also listen to that audience so that you can have a better product.

[Vim_User]

I want GPL3 and later. I don't want 2 year old outdated brick thrown out as unsupported outdated GPL2. By the way, there is no such thing as "GPL2", there is only GPL and its lastest revision is 3.

Actually, there are different versions of the GPL. Like your kernel, for example, which is in huge parts GPL 2 without the "and later" statement. Have fun throwing that out as unsupported outdated GPL 2.

[sireangelus]

Actually, there are different versions of the GPL. Like your kernel, for example, which is in huge parts GPL 2 without the "and later" statement. Have fun throwing that out as unsupported outdated GPL 2.

i think he meant the software, the released software under my idea of software utopia.

[dee.]

i've stated that. but it would be nice to have something cross-distro

There already is. The APIs that are available on desktop Linux are available on most distros. Except that Ubuntu is trying to break that with Mir. They want their own special OS apart from the rest of the ecosystem. Ubuntu tries to be to Linux what MacOS is to BSD.

PRISM has been blown out of proportion.

No, it really hasn't. It's a really bad thing. Wake the fuck up, you can't keep shoving your head in the sand forever.

It's a big deal, but all the same, if you're american you should be demonstrating and protesting with your own senator. You can't blame a system for doing something when you don't have a choice.

I'm not American. That's the point here - people who have no chance to affect the matters in USA are being spied on. USA kills innocent civilians with drones, forces their legislation on other countries, acts like it can do whatever it wants and the world just has to deal with it... kind of like what Microsoft does in the software world.

You think that an open source facebook wouldn't be subjected to the same data collection?It would have, and it would be forced to silence.

What are you on about now? You're all over the place. Facebook already uses open source on it's servers. Open source doesn't make sense in the context of a web service. How do you define open source in a web service? The page source is readable to anyone. The software that runs the servers is open source. That's not even remotely the point here, open source can be used to do bad or good things just like closed source.

So actually you are saying an old truth: the only computer safe is a powered off one. Those companies ARE the internet. The one the masses uses.

Bullshit. My computer is safe, because I don't allow microsoft spyware on it. I don't use google services, I don't use facebook, I encrypt my hard drive. I use Linux so I don't get spyware or trojans. That's again not the point. We don't have to accept that premise, we don't have to accept the surveillance. There can be an open internet without people getting spied on and their privacy violated. That's something we need to strive for.

onestly? if they were logging my keyboard i might get upset. Anonymous usage statistics of my computer, not that much.

Yeah I figured you'd say that. That's how they get you though. If you want to implement a police state, you can't spring it on people all at once. You have to take small steps, and make every step look "necessary" in order to "protect people" or for "national security" or some such bullshit. When the steps are small, people will give up their freedoms without even noticing it.

Microsoft wanted to implement Trusted Computing with their Palladium scheme. People were outraged, so they postponed it, and now they're going for the slow-n-steady approach.

They are also surveilling direct traffic. So this post is actually monitored while it makes it's way towards phoronix forums.Don't be so insurrectional or they might trace you down and get you in your sleep.

This is a public forum, anyone can read this. And no, they can't trace my connection without the site owner's cooperation.

Nope. I stand against any kind of privacy violation, but you can bet that what i want to hide i do very well.

It sure as hell doesn't look like it.

Nope,wrong one.I care about ethics until is possible. When being ethical is not possible anymore, i start using my brain and i do what suits me best. So i might be an opportunist.

So in other words, you care about ethics as long as it's convenient for you. Being ethical is always possible, it's a choice you have to make. You may have to sacrifice some comfort or luxury to do it, though. Kind of like how you have to pay a little bit extra if you want to buy fair trade coffee or ethically produced clothes or free range eggs.

Nope. There is a huge difference between installing a program from the internet with a gui and having to mess with the cli.But it seems that this difference is baffling to you.

Blah blah. Who cares? The average user doesn't need or want to install new drivers. Those who do, don't have problems using CLI.

in your own utopic world, yeah. The rate of adoption says otherwise.

Again, it won't last. When Ubuntu goes full-on Mir and isolates themselves from every other distro, and destroys compatibility with the Linux ecosystem... it will go badly for them.

i'm actually having a very good luck with that using windows.

Right, because you're supporting a criminal organization. You're practically paying protection money to them to maintain your level of comfort. So excuse me but I don't really envy you at all. I value my freedom more than comfort. I can do all the computing I need without being a slave to criminals.