Canonical Working On Mir's Performance, Mir On Mir

[sireangelus]

Yeah, go ahead and complain, start a blog, what do I care. Good luck with that.




Because it's pure rhetoric. There's no point in it. If you're going to talk nonsense, I'm going to ignore it. People who are lazy are in trouble no matter what OS they use. All systems have their flaws.

No they're not. Sailfish and Tizen will both use Wayland. Not Surfaceflinger.

https://www.tizen.org/events/presentations/upcoming-technologies-wayland-and-ofono

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTM0OTE

point taken, but the basic idea still remains, provide a standard enviroment to build apps on it.




I

t's a known fact windows 8 spies on everything you do and all that data goes straight to NSA. Windows hackers? Don't make me laugh. The whole thing is a black box, the whole hacker culture on windows is all blackhat, people doing botnets for profit, taking advantage of the holes of the OS. As opposed to Linux, where the hacking culture is utilized for the good of everyone by way of open source software.

It has been documented by people who have been tracking the traffic from windows 8 that windows sends lots of data about everything you do on the OS. You can't trust windows 8. It's a surveillance tool.

And it doesn't matter if you trust microsoft or not, it doesn't matter if you can disable secure boot or not. When you buy hardware from microsoft, you are DIRECTLY financially supporting microsoft. Why is that hard to understand? You're supporting a criminal organization that has spent several decades using every dirty trick on the book to unfairly eliminate competition from the market for their own benefit. There are plenty of documents of the abuses of microsoft, there are court documents, there are leaks, there are plain admissions from (ex) microsoft workers. If you are willingly throwing money at microsoft, you are an accomplice to their crimes.

Apart from competitive things that i might agree on, aren't we taking the conspirancies a little too high? aren't you a little paranoid? Aren't we taking the verizon scandal out of proportion? Now every single things that is connected reports to the NSA? What about any blog/site/server platform? How do you now that even phoronix does not have to report silently to the NSA? Why you use that as an excuse ?If those hacker only would have bothered to turn off the OS telemetry that tells how many times people click on the start menu to give usage stats so that they can improve UI. The options are there, you just need to disable them( and those are asked at install time, in the first reboot. if these "hackers " do not bother to read them, it's not my fault.. isn't it your phylosophi?). And a lot of the telemetry is saved on your account so that settings and stuff are syncronized across devices.

And i'm a realist. If i need a piece of hardware , i go for the best i can find. Make me a pixel chrometablet with bay-trail where i can install both xubuntu and android, with detachable keyboard and double battery, and i'm sold.

What most distros? Stop talking bullshit. Ctrl-alt-(F1-F6) takes you to VT on all distros I have tried. I also have no idea what you're talking about regarding Nvidia driver. My installation of Nvidia driver was simply two clicks of the mouse, give permissions, DONE, reboot and everything works.

It does not kill Xorg and log me in the VT. That's what's needed when you download the nvidia driver from it's site, where you expect it to be(gamers will want the latest, they won't care about stability within reason.) Manually killing the Login manager is not an option.

Yes and this means no other desktop or distro can ever adopt Mir. Which means everyone else will use Wayland, which means Ubuntu will create a separate walled garden from all the real Linux distros.

At least they will start porting their apps to linux. It's a start. And Ubuntu is becoming the standard de facto in terms of linux desktop.

I'm trying to rob you? Since when? You're a ridiculous little boy, aren't you.

If you want a GUI for something, go on and write one. Publish it as open source. People will like you.

i'm a user. I don't care to write it myself. I EXPECT it to be there when i'm going to use it.

[tvall]

I loled at your inability to read my posts. No offence, but you need more sleep.

yes, I do. Been working all day on a $6 million project for the school system. need sleep....

[dee.]

That's the f***ing point, not having to read a manual to play a game.

An emulator is not a game. Just like an OS is not a game even if it allows you to play games running under it. Mednafen is the most advanced emulator for the generation(s) of consoles it supports, it supports a lot of different consoles (NES, SNES, gameboy/GBC/GBA, Sega Mastersystem/megadrive, and a few others), it has a great set of features - the developers are focusing on providing a powerful, functional, and well supported emulator that provides damn near perfect emulation on the various platforms it emulates, so if they don't have the time to give you a GUI... not that big a problem. Heck, if you want a GUI so badly, go offer your services, offer to write and maintain one, or stop complaining.

[dee.]

I'm the one who's using the software. Even if i don't pay for it, i'm still entitled to point out what is wrong with it, even if i don't know how to write code(not true, but not enough either to something as i proposed).
This is exactly the GNOME3 philosophy. And as such, i've just wanted to use the leading tablet format out there. The one that has one at least at first, because the android alternative was inoperable. Also, the software ecosystem for ipads is 10 times better that the android equivalent, while that's not true in the phone equivalent. I still can't find alternatives to Amplitube for IOS or similar programs(they even provide the logic board with inputs and outputs.)

Yeah, go ahead and complain, start a blog, what do I care. Good luck with that.

i'm still wating for an argoumentative answer to this: "yeah right... GUIs makes no sense at all. Why having them??? it was so nice back then. I tell you something that nobody ever told you and you sure as hell never noticed: PEOPLE-ARE-LAZY. They don't want to learn a complicated way to do stuff. They want to actually do stuff, and do it in the fastest way possible. It happens that is the gui and using the mouse instead of typing for longs periods of time.It means that i don't have to maybe find a way to do things through an obscure set of things in a strange language that sounds like alien, they want to have a nice panel that sets up the options with them cleary explained so that they can do on their own easily. It happens also that i want to learn how to do things in the smallest time possible. If a bike had 8 different brakes and 70 gears,that might have a scop for a pro biker, a normal person that just wants to do a mile and have a nice ride looking around won't care to learn them ,they would want the normal 2 brake-1 gear version, and they will trash the 8 brakes bike without a second though. In fact it seems to me that the most used(and sold) bikes have no shift gear at all. Have you ever asked yourself why?(it's an interesting parallel too.)"
You only commented on the bike example and ignored the whole target user part, which is where i come from with your "strawman argoument"

Because it's pure rhetoric. There's no point in it. If you're going to talk nonsense, I'm going to ignore it. People who are lazy are in trouble no matter what OS they use. All systems have their flaws.

All the system you mentioned are linux/androidDriver/Surfacelinger/(INSERT SPECIFIC UI AND PACKAGE MANAGER HERE) QT/QML systems. And it seems to me that's exactly what canonical is doing, but instead of surfacelinger they use Mir.

No they're not. Sailfish and Tizen will both use Wayland. Not Surfaceflinger.

https://www.tizen.org/events/presentations/upcoming-technologies-wayland-and-ofono

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTM0OTE

as i always said, there are so many hackers trying to dissect windows for they're own good, that if there was strange traffic streaming from some sort of spying system we would have long known about it.It doesn't mean i trust microsoft. It means that i'm willing to consider that there si no other alternative to have a tablet that can run pretty much all OSes(the irony! )if you don't buy a UEFI tablet.FYI, Secureboot Must Be Possible To Be Disabled if an OEM wants windows 8 certification on a non-arm system.

It's a known fact windows 8 spies on everything you do and all that data goes straight to NSA. Windows hackers? Don't make me laugh. The whole thing is a black box, the whole hacker culture on windows is all blackhat, people doing botnets for profit, taking advantage of the holes of the OS. As opposed to Linux, where the hacking culture is utilized for the good of everyone by way of open source software.

It has been documented by people who have been tracking the traffic from windows 8 that windows sends lots of data about everything you do on the OS. You can't trust windows 8. It's a surveillance tool.

And it doesn't matter if you trust microsoft or not, it doesn't matter if you can disable secure boot or not. When you buy hardware from microsoft, you are DIRECTLY financially supporting microsoft. Why is that hard to understand? You're supporting a criminal organization that has spent several decades using every dirty trick on the book to unfairly eliminate competition from the market for their own benefit. There are plenty of documents of the abuses of microsoft, there are court documents, there are leaks, there are plain admissions from (ex) microsoft workers. If you are willingly throwing money at microsoft, you are an accomplice to their crimes.

i beg to differ. The difference here is the ease of memorization. With menus, you have hints. You know that you will have to look under settings, display, then if you forgotten the next step there is an high chance that seeing the various options will have you rember what is it that you need. The average user won't , because they DONT WANT TO because of the aforementioned laziness remember a long list of meaningless scribble.And also cause of the aforementioned laziness they will have to go again to google each time the same problem will present himself.Even more badly, if the problem presents itself after each boot because the long CLI command won't be remembered the next boot. Remember me to hate the CLI next time the NVIDIA driver asks me to close X.Org because it can't install otherwise... Someone who comes from windows will have the subsequent problems:
Have no idea what X.Org is. Have no idea what to do. Close the CLI. Go back to the windows partition.(and... most Distros do not offer the option anymore to login to VT and close Xorg.)

What most distros? Stop talking bullshit. Ctrl-alt-(F1-F6) takes you to VT on all distros I have tried. I also have no idea what you're talking about regarding Nvidia driver. My installation of Nvidia driver was simply two clicks of the mouse, give permissions, DONE, reboot and everything works.

Mir will break api towards unity. Of course it's not a problem for them: they can develop both at the same time The unity API once set won't change for quite a while, since it will follow the QML/QT APIs. Like Android UI can break surface linger abi(2.3>4.0) and have the drivers rewritten. In these cases it does not matter, because all of this happens behind the end-user and it's made in a way that a user would never notice.

Yes and this means no other desktop or distro can ever adopt Mir. Which means everyone else will use Wayland, which means Ubuntu will create a separate walled garden from all the real Linux distros.

At least they keep the compatibility even between different rendering methods(GDI>DWM-Direct2D)

I don't want to rob you of your freedom of using the CLI. But you're actively trying to rob me of my freedom of having things that are easy to set up. So who's against freedom now?

I'm trying to rob you? Since when? You're a ridiculous little boy, aren't you.

If you want a GUI for something, go on and write one. Publish it as open source. People will like you.

[sireangelus]

you miss again the point. The REAL WORLD is proprietary. This is why i'm calling what you want a utopia. It's better to have linux supported by proprietary and slowly introduce a change in their ways( i always said that if i ever have become the sole dictator of a big nation, one of the laws i would make is that all software must be released under gpl2.0 after it becomes 2 years old , but you could still make a new version with significant change and use a EULA as strict as you want; So you can keep your new software license-only and still make it so old users can stay with what they paid for and have it supported indipendently, if you want it to be legal in my country; that's the same as what you envision.So in this example, Wow servers,if they are located in my country, and clients up until the Cataclysm would be gpl-2.0. )

The fact is this. If proprietary"crap" does not support linux, and if linux does not make life easy for the average joe, linux won't take off. Fix the points i wrote about, and it will. Which is exactly what canonical is trying to do. I'm defending their choices and pointing out why they make sense for them, for their scope, for their target audience and their business model.You can live with stallman in your happy utopic world of having everything FOSS: not happening. Not in the next 20 years.Unless there is a change in the attidude in the linux dev world where you compromise. Even the linux kernel compromises... won't you at least be able to?

400k of proprietary software deviate into categories of: spying, broken, unsupported, messy, overpriced, drmed, clones.
1 opensource software that is functional enough is getting my money, so if you think of supporting the proprietary mess - feel free to use it, but don't even try to trashtalk me into making linux a sweet nest for that garbage at cost of its advantages.

Why are you so against option and freedom of installing what i want on my system, and provide an easy and standard way to do that, provide an easy way to set my system up, and give business an option to jumpstart an ecosystem that could really change the world as a whole. By opposing this change, you are making Android a simple substitute for Windows/MacOS, it's slightly better, but still is no gnu-linux, nor it has the freedom you so much hunger for.
I still don't know why OpenSUSE - i believe it was 11.10- wouldn't want to play nicely with the repos. I had the same behaviour both on virtualbox and on a separate machin.
I'm on Xubuntu mainly for the software and forum support,in particular the PPA system.

about the WIFI problem, i'm talking about, having it installed, and putting in the WIFI password(even linus ranted about it). Just so you know, windows does not require Root privileges for installing drivers for 2 reasons: the first one is that they (if you use x64) require certification, or the kernel will refuse to run them-- if a driver installs itself in some forced way, the next boot the system refuses to load it with a blue screen error. Second is that the installation is done in background automatically, pulling from the windows update repository the right driver for the device so you can have basic functionality.Installing a software to separately manage the device requires root.Also, fedora and ubuntu do not require the root password to connect to a new wireless. My guess is that it has something to do with dhcp and iwconfig/ifconfig.s

I don't care about your change, because your change is a disaster.
Where the hell did you actually emerge from? I suggest - windows developer, then android developer, now trashing linux? Exactly why I hate Google to allow everything into userspace, should have gone opensource only! Would be much less biggots like you, much less malware, much more attention to freedom development.

is a disaster because you don't make money out of it. Facebook and Google are proprietary software running all around open source one. Look at how steam is playing nicely with opensource- even providing patches to the linux intel drivers and developing the SDL. This is the kind of ecosystem i envision. Everyone wins.

And so that you know, if you count out VB5 lessons in my high school, i never was a dev. i'm just a user and as i am a user i want my tools to help me doing what i want, not being in the way.

[brosis]

that's 1 software out of the 400k out there that are proprietary and will not support linux cause of this philosophy.

400k of proprietary software deviate into categories of: spying, broken, unsupported, messy, overpriced, drmed, clones.
1 opensource software that is functional enough is getting my money, so if you think of supporting the proprietary mess - feel free to use it, but don't even try to trashtalk me into making linux a sweet nest for that garbage at cost of its advantages.

Opensuse still hase the bullshit of asking root for wifi. And last time i tried i could not update nor donwload anything from it's repository, no matter how much i searched on google.

Probably because your Wifi adapter is a piece of bullshit requiring firmware to function. Tip: introducing kernel module into the system requires root privilege.
Sorry, I don't use windows for like.. 10 years, is it different there? I know that windows gives a crap about its owner, but does in insert signed-elsewhere drivers without questions or kindly asks its owner for credentials?

Regarding your battle with opensuse repo, you are making me laugh my ass out. I have it on production notebooks, runs flawless, even detects manual config changes for not officially supported yet (by free driver) hardware.

Free to use what you want. I'm not forcing you to do anything. but PLEASE, do not talk about things you do not know. If it was that easy to run full linux apps in android(even if you would want to do that) we shouldn't be using chroot envs on microsd to do that.( and i know what i'm talking about, i've been a bit of an android rom developer) And android is ALL about userspace. It could use the QNX or the NT kernel or the Mach or HURD and provided a little bit of support it would run all the same(as it does on QNX)
Please read my post and the fact that i made a clear distinction in terms of what is GNU/Linux and what isn't.

Guys, how about you go sleep or something to stop misinterpretting my posts. Why all of the sudden you want to run Gnu/Linux applications on Android, when I stated about running Andoid applications on Gnu/Linux?

Yeah. beacuse, if i write a QT app and someone has a gtk-only distro, i have many choices, most of them very expensive in terms of time and effort.. statically compile them, have a single-package-mini-chroot system, or having to painfull try the software on all the distros so that i can determine what packages i need, be sure that they are in the package manager, and write the relative package manager installation; Also be sure that all the paths used are the same on all distros.Guess what is the preferred and why by the software houses?

First, quit your proprietary bullshit?!
Second, I use GTK, Qt and FLTK applications on my distro without problems.
The real problem is your proprietary crap, when you stop building fences, the software can easily cooperate and work together.
If you don't stop building fences, then its your very own pain thank you very much!

First, if i'm trashtalking is because i'd like a change, probably because i CARE.
Your os is not supported trash is the treatment that 99% of software and hardware developers reserve to linux. I can see the mentality trascends the OS you write for.

I don't care about your change, because your change is a disaster.
Where the hell did you actually emerge from? I suggest - windows developer, then android developer, now trashing linux? Exactly why I hate Google to allow everything into userspace, should have gone opensource only! Would be much less biggots like you, much less malware, much more attention to freedom development.

Second, i don't care. I want to buy a new shiny keyboard and plug it in.I even don't want to care about drivers, but if i really have to i will install them. More likely, i will call a friend of mine that knows this kind of stuff like as why it does not work and he will take care of it, only to be told that the operating system does not support the hardware. After that cryptic answer that i know absolutely nothing of what is he talking about, i would kindly ask the friend to give me a solution, that solution typically would involve installing windows so that i can make use of what i just bought.
Or even worst, imagine someone buying a linux laptop that buys the macos/windows only Photoshop because he's got a studio and wants to install it once the market share starts breaking over the 2% threshold that somehow it has never passed.
This is all in the lazy-argument and the TARGET AUDIENCE problem that "your kind" of users can't even see and won't bother with it.

Well, burn your fingers on and on, till you understand the essence of my post.
Don't eat every sexy crap and you will have no cancer; don't sleep with every sexy girl you see and you will have no AIDs; goes on and on.
Turns out that when customers become picky, manufacturers start to care;... or they start to ignore you for which I couldn't care less

Regarding your solution, its probably Logitech universal receiver dongle, that Logitech refused to openspec or support under Linux (LOGITECH FAULT), so it only works in supported environiment of their choice (aka windowz) because its closed source (PROPRIETARY CRAP).

Now look at roccat - open support, any OS can use or port it, very nice choice for people who don't eat trash.

We never needed your kind to succeed, nor will your kind bring ANY good to open development, so thanks but no thanks. Your solution is to make us a huge mess just comfortable enough to be able to throw your proprietary trash in, by destroying whole distinctive philosophy or uniqueness, which you call "Stallman utopia". The heaven gates are not for every dirty daemon here to climb in, I guess? Works, fine by me

3) Android IS Linux. Userspace runs in Davik JVM and all applications can run on GNU/Linux system, because the latter is superset.

android is not gnu/linux. the linux part of that is true, but there is no gnu code in the userland. they use bionic instead of glibc. toolbox (their minimal busybox clone) is apache 2.0 licenced. when implementing encryption they wrote their own implementation around dm-crypt instead of using cryptsetup, which does exactly what they needed, due to its gnu license. everything the user sees is running on dalvik.

running a gnu/linux app requires using a completely separate userland in a chroot. and running X apps involves using vnc, effectively making your chroot a separate os that could be running anywhere.

I loled at your inability to read my posts. No offence, but you need more sleep.

with the whole basement argument i was taking an extreme and i was not attacking you directly.I simply wanted to prove a point of what the feelings of people who actually use the software but do not care about what your position is sees "you" as.

You are not "attacked", we are not raping you,... yet. Ahaha!

[erendorn]

RTFM.

That's the f***ing point, not having to read a manual to play a game.

[tvall]

i'm sorry to have to confirm and state it, but since i've been attacked by all side..

that's what i meant.

quoted the wrong person. edited my post to fix it. sorry

[sireangelus]

with the whole basement argument i was taking an extreme and i was not attacking you directly.I simply wanted to prove a point of what the feelings of people who actually use the software but do not care about what your position is sees "you" as.

[tvall]

Android IS Linux. Userspace runs in Dalvik JVM and all applications can run on GNU/Linux system, because the latter is superset.

android is not gnu/linux. the linux part of that is true, but there is no gnu code in the userland. they use bionic instead of glibc. toolbox (their minimal busybox clone) is apache 2.0 licenced. when implementing encryption they wrote their own implementation around dm-crypt instead of using cryptsetup, which does exactly what they needed, due to its gnu license. everything the user sees is running on dalvik.

running a gnu/linux app requires using a completely separate userland in a chroot. and running X apps involves using vnc, effectively making your chroot a separate os that could be running anywhere.