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  • #41
    Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
    They were shoved down people's throats.
    What the fuck does that even mean? You can still, after five years later, remove PulseAudio if you so desire. Also if you want Gnome 2 like experience you can still have that too. Even KDE 3.5 is maintained by openSUSE. I personally use both systemd and PulseAudio because they are superior to anything that's out there. I would assume that to be the reason why almost every distribution does that too.

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    • #42
      Originally posted by Teho View Post
      What the fuck does that even mean? You can still, after five years later, remove PulseAudio if you so desire. Also if you want Gnome 2 like experience you can still have that too. Even KDE 3.5 is maintained by openSUSE. I personally use both systemd and PulseAudio because they are superior to anything that's out there. I would assume that to be the reason why almost every distribution does that too.
      You're forgetting that what BO$$ describes as "shoving down someone's throat" is in fact the laziness of switching to something new that fits your needs.

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      • #43
        Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
        As if anybody chose any of those.They were shoved down people's throats. Systemd is the next shit we'll have to put up with...
        You know what? I use Linux for about a year now .. I started with Ubuntu, used/tried various others separately or on parallel, Fedora, Mint, Arch, Ultimate Edition, OpenSUSE, etc, then went back to Ubuntu. Out of those, the one I had and used as my main system for the most time was Arch Linux. Arch Linux at the time had neither Systemd nor Pulseaudio * by default. I had Alsa and sysvinit or whatever it's called. I chose and installed Pulseaudio and Systemd and didn't regret it, in fact they sokved various issues I had. I've used Gnome 2(I used and old version of a distro) and Mate and prefer the newer version, in fact, regardless of what trolls say, I can do anything on Gnome 3 that I did on Gnome 2 and have all customization options(except use some weird addon/applet whatever from outer space that would probably break between Gnome 2 versions anyway ... Not that I needed many extra applets ever myself .. Oh, I can use my gtk2 themes either, but that's not really a Gnome thing). If someone still can't find them after all this time .. Sorry, it's your fault ..
        (I'm talking about delete panels, add/move/delete applets and whatnot, it's all there in Gnome Classic and you can have most of it with Gnome Shell extensions too).
        I use KDE 4 now and it's awsome too. In fact it's also more lightweight on the same machine than Gnome 2 + Compiz, and if I disable desktop effects I', sure it rivals metacity.
        Never had a problem with Unity either .. Except it could crash sometimes when changing compiz settings and I'd need to log out and in, but not during use.
        Want to stay in the old days? LXDE, MATE and XFCE is there and you can have them preinstalled in many distros if you want. But I don't really want Windows 98/XP UI copy and don't have a 15 year old machine either, although it's a fairly cheap one.
        [never liked the menu in XP or 98 from when I first used them and hadn't seen others, so I don't like the concept much in Linux either]. The new UIs feel to me less cluttered and more elegant(and whatever you say, for me their faster to do what I want and easier), notice how many things Gnome 2 packs on its panels for example?

        I can't comprehend what problem systemd has .. Oh it's made by Lenart, forgot ..!
        And it's ... New .. As if different. And faster(faster == bad).

        So all in all, I find that all the changes have positive results till now. Some people(probably you too?) seem to hate change too much ... Even if it's better in any way.
        And if any of the previous changes were unneeded and could be implemented better .. I certainly see Wayland being done the right way till now. Full backwards compatibility with X and developers explain what the purpose is for each change, I haven't really seen something changing for no reason on it.
        Also, if X were to be improved in the areas it needs, I doubt it would make a great difference from making Wayland .. But it'd probably be more unlikely to have backward compatibility. And we can also keep X this way and not push the changes to the ones who truly don't need(probably people that noticed it's called X SERVER for a reason and want the features that go more with the last part). Because as I mentioned X was initially designed with another use in mind. We use it because quite frankly there's nothing else to use ...
        There's were some projects, but I think they were mostly bad copies/mods of X.
        Also kudos to X.org devs, they've made tremendous progress on X in the years that passed, I must admit.
        Btw, if you want X you can still use it. Although you'll rant about it will be deprecated, unmaintained and be useless in the end .. Which will be after like 10 years, long after Wayland works fine and your PC has broken and you'll have to install new things anyway on your new one ..
        Just see other similar cases and you'll understand.

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        • #44
          Originally posted by Teho View Post
          On top of what 89c51 said; It's pretty cool for "research project" to be supported by upstream Qt, GTK+, Clutter, SDL, EFL... Not to mention the intrest from the developers of various open source projects like Compiz and KWin. It's also already used by Tizen and some other embedded systems.
          Like I said, it has lots of goodwill, and this is really good for a project like this.

          Most of the support you mention is experimental, unreleased, and trivial to implement. Still, it is nice.

          In terms of production environment, Wayland isn't used anywhere yet, so yes, it's pretty much a research project right now. With potential to become the next standard, yes. But we're a long way off from that.

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          • #45
            Originally posted by curaga View Post
            Half of those things aren't X's faults. It's quite unfair to blame it for problems in something else.
            That's a perfect example of people expecting pink elephants in the sky from Wayland. It's an interesting project, but people have unrealistic expectations. It will affect developers far more than users, and I don't expect any huge performance benefits. Most of modern desktops completely bypass most of X and render directly, X is just used for blitting. That is exactly the reason why Wayland is so interesting -- because it can do the same thing without 99% of the cruft X is dragging along and which is rarely used today.

            That, and the chance to fix some things in the process.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
              That's a perfect example of people expecting pink elephants in the sky from Wayland. It's an interesting project, but people have unrealistic expectations. It will affect developers far more than users, and I don't expect any huge performance benefits. Most of modern desktops completely bypass most of X and render directly, X is just used for blitting. That is exactly the reason why Wayland is so interesting -- because it can do the same thing without 99% of the cruft X is dragging along and which is rarely used today.

              That, and the chance to fix some things in the process.
              I think people do have unreasonable expectations for Wayland, it wont fix things over night. That being said, my expectations are that it will allow us TO fix things. It will allow us to stop worrying about X and bypassing X and working around the deficiencies of X. Will Wayland signal the second-coming? No. But it might just bring us one step closer to paradise-- or atleast ALLOW us to get into paradise unlike X which is currently standing in the way.
              All opinions are my own not those of my employer if you know who they are.

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              • #47
                Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                That's a perfect example of people expecting pink elephants in the sky from Wayland. It's an interesting project, but people have unrealistic expectations. It will affect developers far more than users, and I don't expect any huge performance benefits. Most of modern desktops completely bypass most of X and render directly, X is just used for blitting. That is exactly the reason why Wayland is so interesting -- because it can do the same thing without 99% of the cruft X is dragging along and which is rarely used today.
                Only that in all likelyhood curga doesn't know what he is talking about. Phoronix has done benchmarks many many times on composited desktops and the performance penaly is huge (something like 30% at tops). The artificial "fix" for that is to disable compositing; on Wayland that will not be necessary.

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                • #48
                  Yay, we got to e-peen waving! Good thing it wasn't aimed at me, but someone with a similar-sounding nick


                  It simply sounds like you're using a blob, in which case you deserve what you get. There is no tearing, there is no flicker here on FOSS radeon. Compositing is an extra layer, and by definition, extra layers always degrade performance.

                  Animations and resizing - blame your WM for those.

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by curaga View Post
                    It simply sounds like you're using a blob, in which case you deserve what you get. There is no tearing, there is no flicker here on FOSS radeon.
                    I get tearing with both binary blop and Nouveau drivers. Tearing is one of the most common problems with X.org regardless of what hardware you are using (try searching it from Google).

                    Originally posted by curaga View Post
                    Compositing is an extra layer, and by definition, extra layers always degrade performance.
                    There's a big difference whether the penalty is 3% or 30%.

                    Originally posted by curaga View Post
                    Animations and resizing - blame your WM for those.
                    X.org window managers are stuck with the problems of X.org. I haven't seen completely smooth animations (or resizing) with any window manager and to what I have understood Wayland is a big improvement on that area. The current situation where data is passed from process to process and back is bound to cause these problems.

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Teho View Post
                      Only that in all likelyhood curga doesn't know what he is talking about. Phoronix has done benchmarks many many times on composited desktops and the performance penaly is huge (something like 30% at tops). The artificial "fix" for that is to disable compositing; on Wayland that will not be necessary.
                      And what did Phoronix benchmarks find when running those same applications on Wayland?

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