Binary Driver Blobs Aren't Yet Ready For Wayland

[adriankx]

asdx i think is the new Q )

i agree blobs are bad but isnt linux all about choice? why are u being so comunist) we can all live toghether blobs and OSS drivers in same ecosystem. try to let go off all that hate u have inside u and dont spam it here on forums. in the end .... end-user wants choice, choice to run what ever operating system wants or need on his hardware, some want to use their hardware to their full extent that means using blobs, others are just fine with OSS drivers included in distros they use. I for myself i am using OSS radeon driver after in the past succesfully using ati blob, but for my mobility hd 3200 latest amd driver is getting coruptions in windows and linux, so i can say i am pretty good using OSS radeon except the overheating of my laptop. Just for the sake of talking i dont see any major improvement for my card in latest radeon developement i had same frames in mesa 7.8 as i have i mesa 8.0 its true i only ran extremetuxracer for test got aprox 30 fps and with blob around 90.

And as the trend goes developers will always concentrate on new hardware. So i dont think i`ll see in this life an OSS radeon driver on same feature parity as the official amd blob as crappy as buggy as it is. Kudos for intel dev for actually trying to make a difference i hope only that they improve their hardware also. Hope i didnt offended anyone i just spoke my mind, if by any change i did i appologize in advance.

[ninez]

How about if instead of you insulting me (calling me shite) you try to do the same things you do with the blob but with nouveau, and when you see something that doesn't work, report that issue to the nouveau developers?

Oh I know, of course you won't, you are an open-source hypocrite. Like the many others in this forum.

I'm pretty sure the nouveau developers are aware of short comings and missing features in the driver - it isn't a question of stumbling across a bug, reproducing it and reporting it. They know power-management is a flop, they know they don't support OpenGL 4.x, etc. What would be the point in me contacting them over things they already know about, exactly?

and by the way, while you are telling me to stop insulting you (like a little bitch!), you earlier posted to someone else this;

YOU should go and die in a fire. Fucking moron

You are a little punk. You are are total peice of shite and you deserve ZERO respect from anyone in this forum.

You will rather call nouveau "garbage" and insult the tremendous work of so many people who have bothered to RE the hardware for your own benefit, but then you go on braging that you "contributed" with bug reports.

And yes, I have used Linux for a long time and contributed to hundred of bugs reports also, but that doesn't give me the right to insult people and their work, like you guys do.

somehow how i don't believe that you have been using Linux nearly as long as you say, by not only your posts in this thread, but by the many others in other threads in the phoronix forums. IMO you're probably full of shit, but i won't exclude all possibilities Now;

1st. Don't misquote me to support your fallacious statements.... I never said that Nouveau was garbage. What i did say was it is garbage compared to the blob. You do know their is a huge difference there, right? To be quite honest though, i would go much further and say - not only is it crap compared to the blob, but also compared to any of the other main OSS GFX drivers... 2nd. How does reverse-engineering something that i don't even use 'benefit me' exactly? (it doesn't, i don't use it!). it did possibly benefit Nouveau though, being as i was using unsupported GFX card and the data i collected could have helped in their efforts. 3rd. I wasn't insulting their work. Nouveau compared to the blob sucks crap in a variety of ways.

You guys are nothing but open-source hypocrites and morons.

Fuck off now.

How am i a "open-source hypocrit"??? - have i made some claim that i am a person who only uses open-source? no, i have not.... I use lots of FOSS software and i also use lots of proprietary software. i have several Linux machines and i also have a Mac. You do realize in order for someone to be a hypocrite, they actually have to do something hypocritical, right???

LOL. you such a dumb fucking SHITE!

[bridgman]

1. Yes, they do release specifications for developers, sorry for putting them in the same boat as Nvidia for that. But in my case they are the shittiest company I have ever dealt with. Why? I have an HD4850, I had black screen problems on Windows with it, (lots of guys reported on their forums) never solved. On linux, small driver changes, no changelog. Now the card is unsupported on Linux, on Windows is or will be soon. This is an middle-end card from 3 generations ago. Wtf AMD?

Just curious, why do you get "unsupported on Linux" ? The HD4xxx has moved to a legacy branch on a slower release schedule but there's already been a first release adding X 1.12 support...

[johnc]

Come on, Android is not number #1 because of the binary blobs, it's #1 because is being backed up by Google. They could've made everything open-source or they could've obligated the provider to provide open-source software, but they don't really care that much about open-source and they just want to make money.

Well I didn't say "because of" but rather "helped". If Google obligated every partner to open-source all of their drivers, you would dramatically cut off the number of participants in the ecosystem. It's precisely that competition and variation of hardware that has made Android so successful.

Otherwise we'd all be stuck with a subpar phone (like Intel's) while Qualcomm, Samsung, NVIDIA, etc. would be pushing forward Windows phones (if Microsoft weren't caught napping and actually had a decent platform in place).

Also, since I see you are a fierceful defender of binary blobs, could you tell me the advantages of blobs over open source drivers?

The primary advantage is that it allows for companies to remain in the system who, for whatever reasons, can not or do not want to open source their drivers. The end result is a better product for the consumer (again, I reference Android).

Cut those companies off and all you'll end up with is a third-rate OS.

Linus knows this and AFAIK he has never endorsed the idea of a no-blob Linux.

[Danny3]

AMD do release specifications for developers. They don't have everything released but they are doing a lot and trying to do more so I think you are being unjust by putting them in the same boat as Nvidia (I know they start it with a lower case 'n', but I like grammar more than marketing).

1. Yes, they do release specifications for developers, sorry for putting them in the same boat as Nvidia for that. But in my case they are the shittiest company I have ever dealt with. Why? I have an HD4850, I had black screen problems on Windows with it, (lots of guys reported on their forums) never solved. On linux, small driver changes, no changelog. Now the card is unsupported on Linux, on Windows is or will be soon. This is an middle-end card from 3 generations ago. Wtf AMD?

2. You are right about marketing, Nvidia.

3. About Wayland, I hope the developers don't change a single bit to make it easier for Nvidia or AMD. They should concentrate to make the server as best as possible. Nvidia and AMD will develop drivers for Wayland in the end. Until then we have Intel.

[Drago]

Even Valve, were astonished by Open Drivers, because they are not black box anymore to them. FOSS Intel drivers, helped them to find some bottlenecks in their Source Engine Linux port, and in the graphics driver.

[archibald]

since this shitty companies (nVidia, AMD) don't want to release the specifications for developers.
...Because of this I will never buy a nvidia (or AMD) graphics card again.

AMD do release specifications for developers. They don't have everything released but they are doing a lot and trying to do more so I think you are being unjust by putting them in the same boat as Nvidia (I know they start it with a lower case 'n', but I like grammar more than marketing).

Good job Intel.

Hear hear!

[Danny3]

Your view is based on a falsehood. Binary blobs helped drive Android to be the #1 smartphone OS in the world.

By your logic Android should be sniveling around the bottom of the barrel since it's loaded up with blobs.

Come on, Android is not number #1 because of the binary blobs, it's #1 because is being backed up by Google. They could've made everything open-source or they could've obligated the provider to provide open-source software, but they don't really care that much about open-source and they just want to make money.

Also, since I see you are a fierceful defender of binary blobs, could you tell me the advantages of blobs over open source drivers?
Please don't give me crap like: every successful company uses them, to be number 1 you must use them or that they are better, faster, smoother, etc...
Of course they are better, faster, etc. since this shitty companies (nVidia, AMD) don't want to release the specifications for developers.

I also use the nVidia binary blob, but I hate them with all my heart because they're not releasing the specs for the nouveau developers. Nouveau would've been at least as good as the binary blog, even better. Because of this I will never buy a nvidia (or AMD) graphics card again.

Good job Intel.

[ninez]

I'm not trying to convince you to anything, I'm simply trying to point out that nvidia is a PAIN IN THE ASS for developers and everyone, I'm simply trying to point out that we should be more understanding and help the developers instead of being against them and being so selfish with the blob/gaming/whatever. After all, they are the people who are writing the software we all use/love in the first place.

You don't need to constantly point this shit out in the forums and jump down anyone's throat who is using the blob. I use the blob because software i use at both home and work is almost unusable with nouveau. again, some people 'require' the blob. Secondly, i work with developers all of the time, and there are much more constructive things to do then telling everyone to go fuck themselves. How about this asdx, actually contribute to a project (if your not doing so already). I've contributed to Nouveau - through using RENouveau a couple of years ago, on some new Nvidia hardware and have contributed to various other projects, and will continue to do so.

Do whatever you want with your hardware, that's none of my business. I'm not trying to tell you how you should use your hardware, I'm simply trying to point out that we should be more understanding with developers.

you're damn right it's none of your business, and no you weren't simply pointing anything out. You insisted i am 'selfish' and 'against developers' for using the blob, and then treating myself and others whom have a more pragmatic / realistic approach, like we are murders or some shit. You're a fucking IDIOT! - and really you should do us all a favor and shut it.

What if one day the developers give up with what they are doing because we as users don't give a shit? Are we going to go back to Windows?

Please think about it. This is all I'm asking for.

telling people to fuck off (as far as i know) is no way to ask anyone for anything. Secondly, Linux isn't going anywhere and supposing very unrealistic theories has little to do with reality. 3rd - aside from sometimes using windows at Work (sometimes) i haven't run Windows in over 10years on a single machine of my mine. You may have just migrated recently to Linux, but some of us have been using it for years and years - so there is no 'going back to windows'. you are so juvenile.

Sure, and you are not helping with their development if you support the blob.

It's not fanaticism and zealotry, I simply understand the developers pain in this case because I'm also a developer (not a Linux kernel developer), and I know what a pain is to have to deal with unsupportive people. As a user, I also prefer the advantages that nouveau has over the blob KMS, Wayland, better integration with the system, etc.

Go back and read all of your posts from various threads over the last couple of weeks, then look at other user's replies - you are TOTALLY fanatical and a zealot.

Unsupportive -> Wrong. I've actually run RENouveau on hardware that at the time wasn't yet fully supported by Nouveau. I also contribute to Compiz whenever i can, via bug reporting with even the occasional suggested fix ~ several which made it into 0.9.7 - 0.9.8+. I also tend to help anyone in the Archlinux (my distro of choice) when they run into issues with compiz (including on 2 occasions notifying an Arch compiz-packager about a fix and how to apply it - before it was merged into compiz-bzr.. using the blob didn't seem to stop me from doing any of that. I've also reported RT related bugs directly to Nvidia - to make them aware of an issue their drivers had with RT-kernel developer changes - which was fixed in 302.xx nvidia driver - which was great because i didn't have to hassle the RT-devs at all to accomplish it.

as a user you can prefer nouveau, that is fine. But you can go fuck yourself when you start supposing others are 'against developers' just because they have VALID reasons, or dare i say LITTLE CHOICE but to use the blob. Stop evangelizing and being an ignorant little shite.

But fine, keep supporting nvidia and their blob until they last. We'll be ignoring you and supporting wayland/nouveau and moving Linux development forward.

If Nvidia didn't make the best linux driver, i would be using something else - and asdx - you don't want to see Nvidia abandon linux (not that that is going to happen), that would be nothing but a big loss for end-users. where is this 'we' coming from ~ do you contribute to Wayland??? how about Nouveau?!? - if your answer is no, then shut it. :\

and again, Nvidia will support Wayland when they see reason to, this isn't unlike most vendors on other platforms. MS releases Vista - vendors write new drivers. MS releases win7 - they do it again... i mean come on, WTF are you even going on about?

[Temar]

No, the people who want to see Linux progress on the desktop, the people who are fed up with X and with the problems that the blob brings to the desktop and to their developers. The people who aren't scared of change, so the entire Linux and free software community.

You really don't get it, do you? You are talking about "moving Linux forward" but you don't see who is paying the bill. Linux can move forward because lots of the Linux developers get PAID. Those developers can get paid because there are actually customers who do buy support contracts. If such a customer needs proper GL support or GPU computing on Linux he will buy an Nvidia card (because the Catalyst driver sucks compared to Nvidia) and he will choose a distribution which offers proper support for that card.

To sum it up:
1) Linux can only move forward (that fast) because somebody pays for the development work.
2) Those who pay, want proper support for their hardware.
3) By trying to ban all binary blobs you force those paying customers to move to another OS.
4) End Result: Less developers can be paid because the distributors make less money.

Wayland is going to get mainstream with or without the blob.

I doubt it, but we will see about that.