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  • #71
    Originally posted by leeenux View Post
    The thing is, what Linux application or admin task can't be done strictly in SSH from the command line? I would say that running a headless server for remoting GUI applications is a pretty odd configuration... Either install a full DE and run VNC or LTSP for GUI apps, or do it all from the command line like Linux admins have been doing since the dawn of time. Linux will never evolve if people keep catering to geezers like Fred.
    lol... You're a super-duper linux engineer at a F10 company and don't use X network transparency on a regular basis? Very interesting.

    You really come off as totally clueless, to be frank. If you think companies that rely on linux / unix distributed architecture -- i.e., 99% of the user base -- are going to rush out to adopt Wayland, you're kidding yourself. Yes, Mr. Shuttleworth might think it's a great idea, but outside of "desktop linux" he's pretty clueless too.

    It's mostly moot anyway. X is going to be around -- and used -- for a LONG time.

    Comment


    • #72
      Originally posted by johnc View Post
      lol... You're a super-duper linux engineer at a F10 company and don't use X network transparency on a regular basis? Very interesting.
      You've made it abundantly clear you don't know anything about administering a Linux box remotely. Kindly explain to me your elite use of X11 network transparency. In detail. Including all of the actual commands you use to invoke your apps remotely, and how you couldn't possibly live without it.

      I'll give you an example of mine:

      ssh linux-admin-user-dude@hostname-or-ip-address

      sudo nano /etc/apache2/sites-enabled/wtf-ever-virtualhost-file

      #screw around with the config

      sudo /etc/init.d/apache2 restart



      Or the classic:

      ssh linux-admin-user-dude@hostname-or-ip-address

      sudo nano /etc/samba/smb.conf

      #add a share, delete a share, whatever



      Or even:

      ssh linux-admin-user-dude@hostname-or-ip-address

      vboxmanage do-something-to-a-vm vm-name clusterfuck-of-parameters


      A personal favorite of mine:

      scp -R root@box1:/home/someguy/somedir root@box2:/home/someguy/somedir


      Or on an EMC Celerra box running EMC Control Station Linux:

      ssh emc-admin-user-dude@hostname-or-ip-address

      qtree something yada the emc nas/san commands are god-awful jibber jabber yada yada puke-my-guts-out


      Now, that I've given you a very basic taste of how normal people normally administer *NIX boxes, why don't you go into depth about the indispensable value of remoting applications over X11, but how there's value in not remoting the whole desktop environment.

      Comment


      • #73
        It seems like the problem here is that the basic answer to network transparency in Wayland is "that should happen in a different layer where Wayland doesn't play" (which is a completely legitimate design decision for Wayland), but it tends to come off more like "yay web apps, and legacy apps can just do all local rendering all the time and constantly sling boatloads of dumb buffers around the network; problem solved" (which is stupid).

        Originally posted by leeenux
        The thing is, what Linux application or admin task can't be done strictly in SSH from the command line?
        Pretty much any serious interactive use of commercial-grade EDA tools, for starters. Running compiles/testbenches on the command line is fine; debugging the design when it fails is another matter entirely. Yeah, feel free to tell Mentor, Cadence, and Synopsys that they're all idiots for designing their programs this way. They'll probably just laugh at you while rolling around in their billions of dollars.

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        • #74
          Originally posted by Scias View Post
          I was talking about the 2D windowing part, not about the 3D. 3D programs run fine if not faster under Linux (with decent drivers of course). The 3D apps bypass X anyways.

          But did you ever try to resize a heavy window under Windows or OSX, and did the same in Linux under a composited environment ?
          Well yes I've done that using Compiz and I can't say I've noticed any lagging, not under nouveau nor under nvidia proprietary driver, that's not to say that there isn't situations where it does lag for people with other hardware.

          I look forward to Wayland, and since I'm not making use of X remote services there shouldn't be anything I will miss out on. However I don't really see where this performance increase is going to come from. In fact I think that from a pure user perspective you will be able to setup 'x server with compiz' and 'wayland with westone' and we won't be able to tell the difference in looks or performance (well unless you count rotating windows). The display server will get a cleaner design and a tighter integration with Linux = great, but some of you come across like this will be some revolutionary thing which will have a huge impact on Linux on the desktop and I'm just not seeing it. I'd be really happy to be wrong though

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          • #75
            Originally posted by leeenux View Post
            You've made it abundantly clear you don't know anything about administering a Linux box remotely. Kindly explain to me your elite use of X11 network transparency. In detail. Including all of the actual commands you use to invoke your apps remotely, and how you couldn't possibly live without it.

            Now, that I've given you a very basic taste of how normal people normally administer *NIX boxes, why don't you go into depth about the indispensable value of remoting applications over X11, but how there's value in not remoting the whole desktop environment.
            You make it sound like the only interface people have with linux / unix systems is administration. What about the actual USERS of the system? Yes, yes... if your system is nothing more than a web server open to the public, sure... you don't need X forwarding. You don't even need X. And you certainly aren't going to need some glitzed-up 3D OpenGL Wayland. I'm not sure why you went into linux admin when I clearly specified distributed work environments.

            As software developers our group is remoting into several different boxes on a daily basis, and we need X forwarding about as much as we need a keyboard, and we need the rendering done on the local box. No, we are not going to nano source files... we are not going to use CLI cleartool to merge source branches back to trunk. And most of all, we need to test the application itself which actually (ohh noes) HAS a GUI, and the application runs only on specific hardware *which isn't even in the same town*.

            Not to mention we run in a mixed environment of Linux (clients) and Solaris (file servers)... and there are no plans for Wayland on Solaris, which means we're relying on X one way or another.

            Second, we have servers and run-time clients where our customers and systems engineers put data, logs and the like. We can't NFS mount these systems, which means we need to SSH in. And when we need to look at files, we won't be using nano.

            And no, we do not want to forward back the whole desktop environment. It is clumsy, it is slow, and it is a resource hog on the remote side. We need our own desktop with our own tool sets where we can work, and any necessary remote apps in a normal window so it doesn't take up significant real estate. For heaven's sake the DE on the file servers is turn-of-the-century CDE. And the servers do not have the horsepower to run big-honkin' desktops for everyone. We live that mess with ICA Citrix on Windows: put more than a dozen people on there and disaster ensues.

            So yes, we could "possibly live without it". We could also "possibly" push our schedule out 3 years as we explain to our customers that we're debugging their application and analyzing data and source with vi. Or we can just laugh and use X. "You can live without it" is not going to fly. Yes... we could live without it. But why would we?

            So congratulations to Mr. Shuttleworth with his fancy global menus and cool compiz effects. I really do like them on my home PC. But people who need to do real work will be requiring X forwarding. So if something similar (i.e., not pixel-scraping garbage) can be made to work in the Wayland context... fantastic! I can't wait to sign up. If not... then I wish everyone good luck with their toy display server.

            This, of course, all presupposes that the binary drivers can be made to work with Wayland. Without that this project is dead on arrival.

            Comment


            • #76
              To everyone concerned about where rendering occurs...

              ...please read the aforementioned Fedora thread. Ajax, an X dev, has said that the reason why they aren't worrying about it is that netoworking will be handled by ANOTHER LAYER. He mentioned that it could be spicy (which would allow rendering on either the client or server side), OR vnc-like.
              Doesn't it make sense to have components do relatively simple things, rather than handle everything like X has tried to do?
              Also, let's not forget the horror of input handling. I would bet Peter Hutterer would love to be able to abandon X and concentrate on a nice clean and separately designed input system.
              Where linux graphics currently is is not b/c of X but in spite of it. These developers have broken their backs trying everything they could to make this possible on Linux that are simply much easier on other systems.

              Comment


              • #77
                Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
                Well yes I've done that using Compiz and I can't say I've noticed any lagging, not under nouveau nor under nvidia proprietary driver, that's not to say that there isn't situations where it does lag for people with other hardware.
                Well, try it with some "heavy" rendering.
                The best example I can think of is Furmark in wine, even in the default configuration.

                Comment


                • #78
                  Originally posted by leeenux View Post
                  I'm guessing you're about 100 years old, and very stuck in your ways. The Linux community has no obligation to continue supporting such a crusty old standard, and all of the big names have made it abundantly clear that they'll jump ship to Wayland the minute it's ready. This is the evolution of FOSS, whereas Windows has an obligation to keep supporting their old cruft, because there's too much other proprietary legacy cruft that depends on it. FOSS can get forked if needed and change with the times, proprietary business applications can't always do that.

                  I'm not even sure why you're trying to convince me, my thoughts on Wayland aren't even important. I'm just a dual Windows/Linux Systems Engineer with a long, illustrious resume filled with uber-scale enterprise IT at Fortune 500 companies (all the way up to Fortune 10: eat your heart out), who also happens to own a couple of marginally popular, very niche, and still relatively-insignificant-in-the-greater-scheme-of-things open source projects. You can whine to me all day long about how nobody should expect you to ever have to change the way you do things, but at the end of the day, I won't be the one who takes X11 away from you.

                  Your efforts would be better spent lobbying the Wayland folks to be more like X11 and the distro owners not to adopt Wayland. They'll love to hear how you know better than they do, because you work at a Fortune 500 company. After all, Fortune 500 companies only employ about 100 million people worldwide to work in IT or related engineering positions like yours. Out of all of them, however, you're the only one who repeatedly mentions it in his posts like it's unique or special, and like half of the people in a Linux forum don't also work at Fortune 500 companies. You work at a Fortune 500 company, I get it. Well done. Have a cookie.
                  First, I'm not trying to convince you, I'm using you as a bad example. That started the moment you started using the "tard" label.

                  Second, I'm trying to be clear here about what my problem is. My problem is getting stuff designed into silicon and put out into the marketplace - for people like you. My first-order problem is silicon design - software and Linux are secondary problems, and only as they get in the way of solving my first-order problem. Normally software and Linux are part of my solution. The other kind of interesting thing about this field is that it's practically all virtual - our designs are just patterns of electrons in memory, magnetic domains on spinning disks, etc - until they go "over there" to get turned into masks, and eventually used on wafers. We can be working on something for a year +/- before something you can hold in your hand exists. So also while my first-order problem isn't really software, my day to day work life is essentially entirely in software.

                  When I talk about F500, I wasn't in the "my company is bigger than your company" mold - I was trying to say that there are many situations out there where software is just a tool to an end. There are many users who just don't care what's running in that black or beige box - they just want it to run and let them do their jobs. Personally I live in the cracks in-between. My job is delivering silicon designs, but I'm also interested in the software, and part of my job in delivering silicon is designing/writing software to create those designs. I both use other peoples' CAD tools, and develop some myself.

                  I've outlined a few scenarios where day-in, day-out network transparency solves problems for us. I can accept that there may be other solutions to those problems than legacy X11 network transparency, but I outlined what my real work-flows are, to show what the real-world requirements are that today's X11 network transparency handily solves. I'm open to other solutions, even use VNC, to name one, but they have to meet my needs.

                  Finally, I'm amused that you liken to me to a 100 year old dinosaur. I was the first user in my area to move from mainframe to proprietary Unix decades ago, and let my area on that transition. Much more recently I was the first user in my area moving from proprietary Unix to LInux, and again led my area on that transition. Today there are a few of us running that newfangled RedHat 6.2, while most of the company running Linux is on RedHat 5.x. I find it rather frustrating that most of the company is sooooooo back-level with this stuff. To call kernel 2.6.32.nnn newfangled, but at least I can be running kernel 3.2.x at home. I'm not "clinging to my crusty old software", I'm using what the company provides and says I need to use. When a semiconductor technology is delivered to a given VLSI CAD system, that's the system you use for that technology. For select stuff I bring the data out of that system and run other software on it, but you can only fight city hall so hard, and still meet your deadlines.

                  And let's not name drop. (F10?) I wasn't starting it, and while I might lose, I don't think I would.

                  The best advice here came from someone (can't find the post) who suggested I participate more directly in the Wayland process. My desire was to see a roadmap showing how they will someday handle situations that today require X11 network transparency. I'd be interested in participating in that process, distilling real requirements instead of just saying, "reinvent X11".

                  Comment


                  • #79
                    Originally posted by Qaridarium
                    i read your message and the answer is simple: use debian7 or ubuntu 12.04 with 5 years of support time and after that its time to upgrade your server.

                    Wayland will not be a problem if you upgrade your server in 5 years.
                    My problem is that the computers at work will be on exactly the kind of schedule you talk about, except with RedHat Enterprise, which I believe has an even longer service life. But my computers at home run on "Linux time", which means I would hope to be running Wayland about as soon as my distribution offers it.

                    Every now and then I like to work from home. I guess I can bring the work laptop home, but I don't always want to have to do that. I'd like to be able to interoperate between home and work Linux systems.

                    - VNC-type stuff, with the heavy lifting done back a work - no problem.

                    - Running ssh into a system at work, exporting the DISPLAY back home - that's an area of concern. Screen-scrapers like VNC are OK if you're just connecting and don't plan on doing a lot of graphical stuff. But any time you're in for heavy vector-pushing, screen-scrapers fall short.

                    - Running at home, with the heavy lifting done at home - that's another area of concern. Can the legacy VLSI CAD software written for X11 display onto Wayland, with whatever shims are needed, and will those shims kill my performance?

                    Comment


                    • #80
                      Originally posted by phred14 View Post
                      - Running ssh into a system at work, exporting the DISPLAY back home - that's an area of concern. Screen-scrapers like VNC are OK if you're just connecting and don't plan on doing a lot of graphical stuff. But any time you're in for heavy vector-pushing, screen-scrapers fall short.

                      - Running at home, with the heavy lifting done at home - that's another area of concern. Can the legacy VLSI CAD software written for X11 display onto Wayland, with whatever shims are needed, and will those shims kill my performance?
                      I don't see why you think either of these would be a problem. wayland was specifically designed to be able to run legacy X11 applications. You won't get all the neat new features of wayland, but you can run the applications just fine right now. The thing that needs to be implemented is network transparency for wayland applications, not X11 ones.

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