Valve Engineer Mike Blumenkrantz Hoping To Accelerate Wayland Protocol Development

[deusexmachina]

Wayland doesn't lock anything down except the ability of programs whatever the hell they want to do without the user knowing or even consenting.

I don't disagree & I don't have a problem with that. Projecting future senarios based on complicated software interactions being managed by authorities outside of our control is certainly beyond most people's capabilities. The vast majority cannot even admit that someone they called "paranoid" 20 years ago was 100% right. I.e. Everyone who said exactly what Snowden said before he said it (and was officially credited by the media & government) kept their negative status within the minds of normies. To those of us that this has happened hundreds of times feel no shame in projecting that "hmm maybe a company (like Microsoft) might promote lock-in" or similar!

[hf_139]

I don't disagree & I don't have a problem with that. Projecting future future senarios based on complicated software interactions being managed by authorities outside of our control is certainly beyond most people's capabilities. The vast majority cannot even admit that someone they called "paranoid" 20 years ago was 100% right. I.e. Everyone who said exactly what Snowden said before he said it (and was officially credited by the media & government) kept their negative status within the minds of normies. To those of us that this has happened hundreds of times feel no shame in projecting that "hmm maybe a company (like Microsoft) might promote lock-in" or similar!

oh boy, you can't say this in front of a RedHat shill.
RedHat is an NSA asset and they would want nothing more than to kill Snowden for what he did.

[Artim]

You are making mistake here. Mac OS is not server-side decorations. Just because decorations are automatically added does not mean it server side decorations.

Client side decorations are produced in the application own process. Mac OS has system decorations but these are processed in the system provided toolkit running in the applications own process.

Yes as Mac OS application programmer you don't need to code your own title bar and minimise/maximise button normally because if you don't tell Mac OS API that you will have to your own it basically going to run it own code in your program todo them. Yes this is like code injection into the client application that you turn off under MacOS when you say you are going to render your own.

CSD and SSD both in theory can happen automatically with the programmer having todo anything. CSD and SSD are referring to what process is the decorations generated in. If the decoreations are generated in the applications process then it client side if the decorations are generated in something else like windows manager and so on then it called server side.

We don't have a default CSD in libwayland-client. Its one of the wayland problems the CSD has no default CSD. Yes the argument for SSD decorations lot of it is lets not add a default CSD. Window sand MacOS both have a default CSD that will be used.

Default CSD and SSD to application programmer look very much the same because they don't have to code anything but the system processing loads they are very different. Think application starts opening and closing stacks of windows rapidly the SSD part being windows manager/what ever could now to the OS kernel appear to be using lots of system resources and be out of control so gets terminated so harming end user as everything get disrupted. Now Default CSD the application doing the massive opening and closing of windows comes the target to be terminated because its the one who is doing massive amounts of processing.

Finally someone that knows what they are talking about.

CSD with no default is pain in ass to application developers. CSD with default applications developers really don't see any difference to SSD.

The issue is, how do you get every DE/WM under the sun to agree on default CSD that don't utterly look out of place and just terrible as a whole?

[Artim]

Yes, I'm fine. How are you? Oh - but you asked whether I'm OK as return rhetoric because you've no dialectic available... And not because you care about my state of being.





Where exactly are you getting this?

You might want to open a history book about the medieval ages you so desperately want back and actually read up on it, middle school dropout.

I noted this in the previous thread too ( https://www.phoronix.com/forums/foru...48#post1491148 ) - the pro-Wayland audience always injecting leftist/gender/mainstream politics. And with how consistent and unnecessarily overpowered this seems - how can't we be left with skepticism and questions regarding what is actually going on and why?

Because that's the only sane thing. What you call leftist, the majority of the human race calls common sense.

This behavior is essentially a shorthand to signal brigading; "if you agree with this long list of victim narratives and perpretrators, then you must also agree that these people I've just marked as perpetrators is bad - and also be against them no matter what argumentation they state." And once they see the tag - like graffiti in a ghetto - all the rest follow with upvotes/downvotes/organizing/attacks. Meanwhile gaslighting as if you've been reasonable and been open to discussion and debate and critique - while never having been.

And you might want to pick up a dictionary when you are already at the library, you obviously don't understand any of the words you use...

[Artim]

CSD is a security vulnerability. An application moving crucial window elements around, potentially blocking or removing close buttons or making its own to try to get users to click on something they don't want.... we already have that in those malicious browser popups, why would we want that in desktop applications as well?

Except it isn't. Maybe it is on Windows, I don't know. On Linux you always have the option to close such a dialog no matter if it gives you a close button or not. And funny that you mention browser popups, as that's the best example against your point. Browser popups - as they open in a new window shoving itself above the main window, hence the name - are controlled by the browser. Which will always mean that they have the same window decoration as the main browser window. If not, the browser vendor has seriously messed up and nobody should use their browser. But I haven't ever seen such a browser pop-up in my life. But maybe I never stumbled over a site that would open pop-up windows back when that was possible.

[LockedPotato]

You might want to open a history book about the medieval ages you so desperately want back and actually read up on it, middle school dropout.



Because that's the only sane thing. What you call leftist, the majority of the human race calls common sense.



And you might want to pick up a dictionary when you are already at the library, you obviously don't understand any of the words you use...

JFC dude. Are you a Wayland dev? I hope so with the amount of ball gurgling you're doing. Also, "why haven't you fixed it" isn't an argument. Not my job. It is actually their job and they've had 16 f-ing years to do it.

[oiaohm]

The issue is, how do you get every DE/WM under the sun to agree on default CSD that don't utterly look out of place and just terrible as a whole?

Lets be real we already have cases of gnome application under KDE looking out of place and the reverse. Majority of users would not care if it out of place as long as it equals that the window does not appear without title bar and control buttons.

So from usability point of view we don't need agreement.

Lets say someone did a proxy wayland compositor as in like Xwayland except this compositor is just do SSD any application connecting to this compositor just add SSD. This would mostly fix up gnome and weston lack of SSD support. This proxy compositor would be able to crash only taking down the SSD applications.

In some ways for me it makes sense for the wayland protocol to provide two sockets one of CSD applications and one for SSD applications so that SSD processing and CSD processing can be independent processing so increasing stability.

[Artim]

Years of writing and argumentation and refinement yet no two people describe what "Wayland is" the same way. No one person seems to even summarize it the same way every time they talk about it. Seem the diversity of descriptions here: https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9f...5e3a9f2d1f2277
And don't confuse my critique for thinking that I don't want Valve to work on it, which inevitably happens. I don't think I have any place to tell Valve what to do.

Wow, you unlocked a new level: you understand now the basic concept that humans aren't machines, but subjective beings that don't live by spitting out prewritten definitions as an exact copy.

PS: citing porobonopd the old moron absolutely disqualifies you for any discussion around Wayland. He's just a toxic asshole that loves to complain while he doesn't understand the first thing about what he's saying. The headline of that "article" already tells you everything you need to know. "Wayland breaks everything!" Yeah, no shit sherlock. That's the main purpose of Wayland. Otherwise, if it was possible to improve upon X11 without the need to break anything, people woudl have done so. That's why Wayland was started as a completely independent thing, so you can use them in parallel if needed. If something hasn't been ported to Wayland yet, you can just use X. Later, XWayland was introduced, so you could do that without having to switch to a different session. But if you get to a point in the development of something where you can't continue unless you break some compatibility, like the X developers did, it's just best to start over from scratch, don't give a damn about any compatibility with previous status quo and design someting future proof that's only meant to work and is not restricted by backwards compatibility. That's more or less what Apple does with macOS, and that the main reason why Windows can't really progress anymore beyond adding more ads, tracking and user-hostile features, solely because Microsoft has damned themselves to backwards compatibility for all eternity. And it's not that they never broke compatibility, with Vista they broke it very hard, to a degree that it was harming them, but still they can't catch up.

[Artim]

I don't disagree & I don't have a problem with that. Projecting future senarios based on complicated software interactions being managed by authorities outside of our control is certainly beyond most people's capabilities. The vast majority cannot even admit that someone they called "paranoid" 20 years ago was 100% right. I.e. Everyone who said exactly what Snowden said before he said it (and was officially credited by the media & government) kept their negative status within the minds of normies. To those of us that this has happened hundreds of times feel no shame in projecting that "hmm maybe a company (like Microsoft) might promote lock-in" or similar!

Then why do you keep pushing your lies?

[Artim]

oh boy, you can't say this in front of a RedHat shill.
RedHat is an NSA asset and they would want nothing more than to kill Snowden for what he did.

what a ridiculous conspiracy theorist you are🤡