Valve Engineer Mike Blumenkrantz Hoping To Accelerate Wayland Protocol Development

[soulnull]

Sorry, not reading your textwalls.

Sounds fitting, you very much sound like a lazy asshole that's just spreading lies but refuses to bring any proof. People like you are literally disgusting me.

... A few moments later ...

Who the fuck do you think will read that wall of text? Get a life...

lol. lmao even.

[billyswong]

Why on earth would I want to be able to move around a frozen window? Sure, the WM/compositor needs to be able to make sure that this window doesn't stay stuck on the top-most layer, but other than that, I don't see any use in this.

You sound like you are in "I don't use feature A thus feature A must be useless" mindset. This is selfish.

Doesn't sound like it has anything to do with CSD/SSD, but rather just a lack of priority to support this.

That's one of the large benefits of Wayland over X11. They put security first and over time will find solutions to allow any legitimate use case without creating massive security issues. When X11 and its predecessors where created, software security wasn't really a word in any developers head, especially outside the business world. The use case you describe is simply way too niche to be of any priority. So you'll have just to wait or find ways around the issue like going through XWayland. Better be lucky that there are still ways to do this by just using an X session (and alternative WMs). If this wasn't Linux, but Windows or macOS, they'd just have deprecated this, and I doubt even Windows would have kept around any backwards compatibility, unless some very big customer of them needed it.

Let me give a more mainstream example. GTK CSD applications currently provide a "Always on Top" option in header bar pop ups. But this feature is not standardized in Wayland and probably never will because of the security ideology of Wayland, which you are merrily appreciating right now. If Wayland provide such feature, it would allow software in background steal attention without user consent. Thus no it won't get implemented ever.

So what is happening in those GTK CSD applications? They are doing an abstraction leak and bypassing the Wayland protocol, talking to Mutter in Wayland via a private method without cross-DE compatibility. Please pull your head out of the sand. Gnome/GTK is using the security card when they want to ban a feature they aren't interested in, then ignore security and cross-compatibility when it is a feature they like. All these are just arbitrary selfish decisions.

Yes, by the people that want to just write software, GTK4+libadwaita is extremely beloved. Especially if you look on Flathub, you barely see any apps that don't use that combination. But in the world of people that just live off the scraps of Gnome (**cough** Mint **cough**), theming is an essential part to their identity, which libadwaita makes a bit more difficult (as in you can still easily change the color scheme, but not the whole design language). If they are smart, they keep GTK4 around and just build alternatives to libadwaita, as only klibadwaita depends on GTK4 and higer, but GTK4 doesn't depends on libadwaita. Especially with Mint, that also made as their task to have two distros, one based on Ubuntu LTS and one on Debian, a whole DE they have to transition to Wayland and has to take care of all apps Canonical snap'd, I fear they might bite off a lot more than they can chew if they don't.

Funny that libadwaita-based apps, that are literally the result of that movement, aren't only the most modern looking ones, but probably the most adaptable ones. I never tested that, but afaik, at least any libadwaita-based app can adapt seemlessly to any screen size, including smartphones, I think even by default. No idea though if it could technically handle foldables and change size on the fly, but they can adapt. Show me one UI toolkit that can do the same thing in a reliable way that won't look more or less crappy depending on the app in use. And you can still theme libadwaita-based apps, at least the color scheme. Though, Gradience, that was made for this task, has been deprecated. But it still works and anybody could just fork it. So maybe your view on this whole topic is just solely based on your prejudice and not any facts.

In GTK ecosystem, there is no proper knob for controlling UI density. People didn't complain back then because It could be achieved as a side effect of choosing GTK themes. Libadwaita breaks that. The Gnome/GTK team and many your so called "modern looking" lovers are irrationally hostile to end users who want to keep a compact UI. Firefox hid the compact UI option by default. Gnome provides no classical low padding alternate stylesheet as a built-in choice. With libadwaita, the barrier of band-aiding this missing feature becomes a bit too high for end users.

But who cares? FOSS ecosystem isn't a democracy. The elites are not going to listen to end users that hurt elites' pride in their aesthetics. You don't have enough skilled software developers to fork our projects? Screw you~

This attitude is disgusting.

UI density is an accessibility feature. Some need it sparse and some need it dense. It isn't well recognized enough yet, but hopefully one day it will. Authorities sometimes do recognize their past faults. https://arstechnica.com/security/202...assword-rules/

[ahrs]

Wayland IS NOT Linux. X11 is Linux, and Arcan will be in the future.

As much as I'd like to see Arcan succeed I'm not sure it has a future without the support of at least GNOME or KDE, but who knows, maybe it can replace Wayland in the embedded space.

[Weasel]

Then go ahead and prove it by actually implementing it somehwere and show off what it can do. Right now, nobody gives a rats ass about Arcan, while Wayland is the industry standard everybody uses without much of a problem. So according to your theory, Arcan must be the holy grail. Strange then that nobody bothers implementing it anywhere, not to mention that absolutely nobody can even understand how it works. Or maybe you are just your typical underpaid intern of a moronic Windows fanboy that has no fucking clue of what he's talking about. Difficult to say.

X11 is the industry standard (present tense not future, and I was talking about the future) and Wayland is a crippled toy. You can't even show off what Wayland can do because it's too crippled for any real workload.

Your words don't hold any weight. Nobody cares about them.

Well, an essential feature according to two Valve developers

No according to anyone with a proper IQ like me who said it for almost a decade. Valve is late by a long shot here…

that somehow for 15 years nobody else has missed.

Nope, everyone missed it. See? I can make claims too.

So who the fuck did you ask to arrive at that conclusion? Certainly not me nor Valve.

Keep burying your head in the sand and remaining ignorant.

Isn't it? I know, I get to the point fast, but if I wheren't right, you'd probably trying to prove me wrong. But as you honestly root for Arcan, it's obvious who's brain child you are.

The entire topic is proof. If something is fast you don't seek to accelerate it.

Is logic that hard for you?

So why do you still bother commenting on a Linux and Open Source Forum, when you clearly haven't touched anything beyond Windows and other buggy MS garbage in at least a decade? It can't be because of your pay check from Microsoft, because they clearly can't even afford a competent troll, they just hired you.

Where's your fucking proof? I've been using Linux almost exclusively for more than 15 years now (I say almost cause I only tested stuff on Windows, other people's machines or in VMs).

Wayland IS NOT Linux. X11 is Linux, and Arcan will be in the future.

Wayland is a crippled garbage. So go back to the circus where you belong with your lies and bullshit claims.

[ahrs]

Except that you do: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-...3#note_1865439

It's not merged. Until it gets merged then that support is not in place.

[Artim]

The only thing required is support from compositors and applications and of course you aren't going to get that support from the party that thinks this is stupid.

Except that you do: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-...3#note_1865439

[Artim]

if you have window borders on mpv, then it's probably using xwayland. see if xkill works on it to be sure (another useful utility that wayland doesnt feel the need to give us).

I think he refered to the UI elements mpv darws on top of the video surface (however they do it). But I think it's a very bad way to do things, as all controls are being scaled the same way as the video, making them very difficult to hit if a window isn't full-screen (and also without a header bar I have no idea where I could just do a right click to get to options like stay on top).

[Artim]

yes, we had it in xorg, we have it in kde, so why isn't it in wayland protocols? the cabal.

Question is if it needs to be its dedicated protocol. GTK-devs are working on it, but no idea if they even use any special protocol for it.

[Artim]

[cutting irrelevant rant]

Who the fuck do you think will read that wall of text? Get a life...

[Artim]

The "Wayland people" I assume you're talking about are GNOME developers, they can support this but they think it's, and I quote, "an absolutely stupid idea": https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-..._requests/4073

I wouldn't agree with them, though on a few occasions it already helped me that by default Mutter won't recover any apps, and that apps will be closed alltogether once gdm is being restarted. Except when something is really broken, I had a couple of instances in the past months where dolphin (I think, or maybe some other Qt5 program) didn't just freeze, but actually even sending it the kill signal didn't kill it. But as far as I understand, this can only happen when the kill signal is stuck inside the Kernel, so I guess this can only have been a Kernel issue.

On the other hand, while I never really have the need for it, it would be great if they came around and added that feature back.

PS: it doesn't seem what you imply is the whole truth. The proposal was deemed back, but since then, people have been working on it. It will still take a while to become reality, but it's not out of question.