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Red Hat Developing New xwayland-run & wlheadless-run Utilities

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  • #61
    Originally posted by ssokolow View Post

    By "some people still apparently don't understand is that wayland was not meant to replace x11 feature for feature", do you mean the people who get all up in arms when X11 users refuse to migrate to it?
    I have yet to see a single person having any problems with Xorg users continuing to use it if they want to do that. Realistically if they use a LTS distro they can sit on it for a decade more easily

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    • #62
      Originally posted by spicfoo View Post

      I have yet to see a single person having any problems with Xorg users continuing to use it if they want to do that. Realistically if they use a LTS distro they can sit on it for a decade more easily
      The problem is that Xorg users see the implicit "I have no problem with that. Attrition will force you to Wayland eventually and we just have to continue to hold firm on our vision for it"-ness of how Wayland has been treated by the implementors of its compositors.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by spicfoo View Post

        You insisted before that there wasn't much maintenance work necessary despite the vendor who has been the maintaining it solely telling you otherwise but no other vendor or volunteer has stepped up to do it despite all of this being communicated several times ages ago. Why do you think that is? If there is no work required, why does it matter that it is abandoned?
        Oh boy, what a way to fuck with the person. Maybe you could follow the rest of the discussion and stop publicly flaying me.

        RedHat maintains X.org to provide official certification for HW. No other Linux does that. No other Linux has collapsed because of that. The vast majority of Linux users are not even aware that the X.org certification exists in the first place.

        RedHat basically does this work to sell a product with certain guarantees. They can stop doing it today and drop any and all certification altogether. It's not like the community has ever cared. The community doesn't even care that Wayland outside Gnome is a fucking suckfest where you lack features and have peculiar bugs. "Yeah, but VRR and per monitor scaling works". This is so fucking relevant for so many users. Oh, wait, fewer than 3% of people in the world have a multi-monitor configuration. And how many of them need per display scaling? Even fewer.

        You don't shove something utterly incomplete and broken instead of something which works well for the vast majority of users. You can pray in 2025 Wayland is usable outside of Gnome/KDE (yeah, far too many people eschew both).

        You can communicate broken stuff all you want, it doesn't make the stuff unbroken. The transition to Wayland has been the absolute worst that I witnessed in Linux over the past 25 years. Systemd is not even close, it was actually great from the get go, it ran circles around SysVinit. PulseAudio was rough at first but ALSA is beyond horrible and redeemable. Using it directly is the worst thing a person can be subjected to. DMIX has never properly worked. ESD/ArtsD were only meant to mix streams/allow simultaneous access to the mic. PA/PW offer a ton above that, more importantly dynamic input/output switching, plugin system, etc. etc. etc.
        Last edited by avis; 30 November 2023, 01:40 PM.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by NeoMorpheus View Post
          Our local X defender will chime in in how this is also not good enough and we must keep X forever in 3,2,1...
          I mean, if this will work for dual-graphics laptops? Great. If not? Then definitely need to keep using X for now.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by ssokolow View Post

            The problem is that Xorg users see the implicit "I have no problem with that. Attrition will force you to Wayland eventually and we just have to continue to hold firm on our vision for it"-ness of how Wayland has been treated by the implementors of its compositors.
            "Implicit" meaning nobody actually said any of this. If they go and read things into "I have no problem with that", you can't blame anybody else for it

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            • #66
              Originally posted by avis View Post

              Maybe you could follow the rest of the discussion and stop publicly flaying me.

              RedHat maintains X.org to provide official certification for HW. No other Linux does that.
              I merely asked you a couple of questions which you have yet to answer. So I will ask you again 1) If there is no maintenance required for Xorg as you claimed why is noone else stepping up to do any work on Xorg server releases? 2) Why does it matter that it is abadonware?

              Also FYI, enterprise distributions including SUSE and Canonical handle certifications. So your claim that no other Linux is doing it is completely false but besides the point. Just the answer the questions briefly if you can.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by spicfoo View Post

                I merely asked you a couple of questions which you have yet to answer. So I will ask you again 1) If there is no maintenance required for Xorg as you claimed why is noone else stepping up to do any work on Xorg server releases? 2) Why does it matter that it is abadonware?

                Also FYI, enterprise distributions including SUSE and Canonical handle certifications. So your claim that no other Linux is doing it is completely false but besides the point. Just the answer the questions briefly if you can.
                1) Again as long as KMS/libinput are there X.org is safe. The maintenance everyone is talking about (and does not understand at all what the whole ordeal is about and parrots how utterly important it is) is RH's maintenance to certify X.org for new HW. This is not needed or required. Other Linux distros have never done that (maybe Ubuntu/Suse/Oracle did but no one has confirmed that).

                2) It matters for those who don't use Gnome/KDE. I'm an XFCE user, there's no Wayland for me. There's nothing even close to IceWM for Wayland. I've given Wayfire a ton of tries, filed a dozen of bug reports and stopped using it. It's too incomplete.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by avis View Post

                  1) Again as long as KMS/libinput are there X.org is safe. The maintenance everyone is talking about (and does not understand at all what the whole ordeal is about and parrots how utterly important it is) is RH's maintenance to certify X.org for new HW. This is not needed or required. Other Linux distros have never done that (maybe Ubuntu/Suse/Oracle did but no one has confirmed that).

                  2) It matters for those who don't use Gnome/KDE. I'm an XFCE user, there's no Wayland for me. There's nothing even close to IceWM for Wayland. I've given Wayfire a ton of tries, filed a dozen of bug reports and stopped using it. It's too incomplete.

                  1) Everyone knows all enterprise distributions do certifications. That is just a basic fact. You can google that in a few secondd. When a vendor says they don't want to maintain a software(you seem to have assumed incorrectly that it is only referring to certifications and also incorrectly assumed that noone else is doing it), that's their sole decision.

                  2) If Xorg requires no maintenance as you claim, just keep using it with XFCE in a LTS distribution that still supports it. What a commercial vendor does for their customers isn't your concern for atleast a decade then and you have zero control on that anyway.

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                  • #69
                    You are person number 150 here who assumes I'm talking about my personal woes and needs. The truth is I can run X.org for many more years, I do not bloody care, I've done it before. I can hack and compile source code, build packages, no big deal.

                    The issue is I want Linux to be accessible and usable by as many people as possible. On the other hand Wayland proponents here, including you, are cheering the fact that soon Linux will again become a lot less usable than it is now in 2023.

                    This is ugly, embarrassing, despicable and shameful. Or maybe I'm just wrong and Linux is all about elitism. Have fun fiercely defending Wayland and talking crap about X.org. Weirdly you signed up a few days ago and made your profile as restricted as humanly possible. That is normally a sign of a troll or someone with an agenda, but maybe I'm just wrong, and you're a proud Linux user.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by spicfoo View Post

                      Yes, that makes sense given that they use Wayland in WSL. Since Microsoft is a contributor to so many other projects including Linux kernel and Python, you probably want to move away from all of that just to be safe from their middling influence.
                      Yep. I consider leaving the linux kernel a long time ago cor this reason. Linux is becoming insecure bloated and slow. Linux is the new windhose. python was always trash to me as well.

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