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Red Hat Enterprise Linux 10 Dropping The X.Org Server Except For XWayland

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  • #61
    Originally posted by NeoMorpheus View Post

    I'm not a RH fanboi, but given the lack of leadership in many Linux things, I will say that I'm glad they are the ones doing it.

    My only issue with RH is their unconditional support for the crap that is Gnome today and that group definitely needs a kick in their asses to either stop the nonsense of making the DE as unusable as possible or simply be replaced by a more sane DE.
    I was thinking about this the other day and we need a "Deskland" Protocol that states how desktops should operate, like where configuration files are stored at, how colors are managed, remote and local session management, login management, crash and restore handling, how to handle SSD and CSD app designs, theming and accessibility, refresh rate management, font and UI scaling, and a whole lot more. Like a combination of Wayland, XDG, and the HIG try to accomplish and to be Deskland compliant you'd have to cover all the nuances of the Protocol.

    All y'all know I'm not the biggest fan of Protocols, but at least they're a start and place for everyone to agree upon a common goal so they can make things that work with each other instead of against each other and then hope that the Protocol can create agreed upon common solutions for all to adopt sooner rather than later, unlike Wayland's maybe if ever approach to common solutions for all.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by avis View Post
      Can you put your money where your mouth is? Validation and testing for Xorg has been streamlined for decades
      Then it must be easy for someone as dedicated as yourself to become the new X.org maintainer.

      We will eagerly await your press release, and we will all make sure to ping Michael when you do so so that you can be prominently featured on the front page of Phoronix for your heroic passion and unwavering dedication.

      Comment


      • #63
        After hearing this news I re-tested Wayland with KDE (kubuntu 23.10) to see if my main stopper was still there (zoom screen sharing) . I am glad to report it is now working... Desktop effects are smoother (on Nvidia also) and i've noticed things like when you move the vulkan test (vkcube) windows around it no longer slows at all.

        The only other issue I found was lack of minimize/maximize button in firefox (i fixed this by enabling 'Title bar')

        So far this has been painless and i'm now staying with Wayland (at least on my work machine) - also battery life seems slightly better

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        • #64
          Originally posted by ezst036 View Post

          Why haven't you stepped up to be the maintainer then?

          You complain a whole heck of a lot for someone who demands some other developer's time. You've stated on more than one occasion you know how to code.

          What is holding you back from standing up and doing your job?
          How do you know there are no people/orgs willing to maintain X.org? Who told you that? RedHat in this press release?

          OpenBSD/NetBSD/FreeBSD/AIX/Solaris are all using X.org right now and none of them have announced plans to deprecate it/replace it with something else.

          Lastly when was the last time you checked Xorg's git repo? Look, it's totally dead: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/...ref_type=HEADS Oh, wait, it's very much alive.

          I've lived long enough to value compatibility.

          I've lived long enough to see that most if not all successful OS'es offer compatibility as long as humanly possible.

          Linux fans rampantly seek to break stuff to make Linux even more exclusive and narrow in its use case. Is that what you're after? Elitism and oblivion as most people simply want to get work done?

          I'm already clinically depressed but seeing how people are rejoicing breaking what works well for a ton of people makes me even more depressed.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by avis View Post
            How do you know there are no people/orgs willing to maintain X.org? Who told you that?
            They did. Not one person, entity, or corporation has actively stood up and said "we are the new maintainer(s) of X.org/X11."

            Not one.

            Not even you. <---

            ^^ check this out. This is really interesting.


            Originally posted by avis View Post
            I'm already clinically depressed but seeing how people are rejoicing breaking what works well for a ton of people makes me even more depressed.
            You're getting yourself bent out of shape for no reason, and causing a bunch of mayhem on the forum on top of it.

            Just do your job. Announce already that you are the new X.org maintainer. What are you waiting for?
            Last edited by ezst036; 28 November 2023, 12:04 PM.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Britoid View Post

              GDI => WDDM was easier for many reasons, which can't apply in the Linux world.

              1) Microsoft can force OEMs to make driver changes, and it's Microsofts way or the highway, can't have OEMs mess around (e.g. Nvidia EGLStreams/GBM)
              2) Nearly every application on Windows links to the system toolkit and libraries, you do not talk directly to the display server, Microsoft ported these libraries to WDDM whilst maintaining binary compatibility. In the Linux world, applications are pretty much talking to the display server direct, unless they go through a toolkit like GTK/QT, hence why the latter have far easier Wayland compatability.

              If everyone used GTK or QT to make their app on Linux and didn't do any Xorg funnyness, honestly porting would be much further along, but alas they haven't, and neither GTK or QT have binary compatibility between releases.
              Not to mention Microsoft did a lot of good choices. Explicit synchronization in kernel, and the scheduling of all graphic calls is domain of directx kernel api and so on. When Vista initially was a bit unstable, after first service pack + some time to let drivers adapt it, things were going pretty good. Mantle, DX12, Vulkan, Metal copied quite a lot from WDDM choices.

              This is why I am so annoyed Wayland decided to not copy MS choices.

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              • #67
                avis dude, take a chill pill.

                It's going to happen and you are wrong,

                I dont want NVIDIA users to suffer, but:
                - I chose intel hardware 3 years ago when I bought my laptop so I can use linux without worring about compatibility.
                - I chose debian because it's a very compatible and unopinionated distro.

                I dont you to suffer just for the sake of it, but dude, you made the wrong decisions. Now you have to migrate your hardware or software.

                Stop whining, it's only your fault.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by avis View Post

                  How do you know there are no people/orgs willing to maintain X.org? Who told you that? RedHat in this press release?

                  OpenBSD/NetBSD/FreeBSD/AIX/Solaris are all using X.org right now and none of them have announced plans to deprecate it/replace it with something else.

                  Lastly when was the last time you checked Xorg's git repo? Look, it's totally dead: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/...ref_type=HEADS Oh, wait, it's very much alive.

                  I've lived long enough to value compatibility.

                  I've lived long enough to see that most if not all successful OS'es offer compatibility as long as humanly possible.

                  Linux fans rampantly seek to break stuff to make Linux even more exclusive and narrow in its use case. Is that what you're after? Elitism and oblivion as most people simply want to get work done?

                  I'm already clinically depressed but seeing how people are rejoicing breaking what works well for a ton of people makes me even more depressed.
                  The BSDs have been working on Wayland support for years. KDE Wayland already works on FreeBSD. Other Wayland compositors explicitly support BSDs too, such as Hikari.

                  AIX is the responsibility of IBM and Solaris is the responsibility of Oracle. They'll do whatever they want at their own pace.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by ezst036 View Post

                    They did. Not one person, entity, or corporation has actively stood up and said "we are the new maintainer(s) of X.org/X11."

                    Not one.

                    Not even you. <---

                    ^^ check this out. This is really interesting.




                    You're getting yourself bent out of shape for no reason, and causing a bunch of mayhem on the forum on top of it.

                    Just do your job. Announce already that you are the new X.org maintainer. What are you waiting for?
                    What's in there for you if I make such an announcement? Do you really think RedHat reconsiders given all the entities I've mentioned earlier that continue to use X.org? Why are you hellbent on making the issue personal? Have I ever made it look like I'm the only person willing to preserve something which works?

                    For all the work I've done to make Linux better (including contributing to quite trifling projects such as the kernel and GCC) I can just say "f-k it" and leave Linux for good. You may have it the way you want. You may drop all the compatibility today! Make people compile the applications they want to use! Compile on each boot! Who cares, right? Progress all the way!

                    Originally posted by King InuYasha View Post

                    The BSDs have been working on Wayland support for years. KDE Wayland already works on FreeBSD. Other Wayland compositors explicitly support BSDs too, such as Hikari.

                    AIX is the responsibility of IBM and Solaris is the responsibility of Oracle. They'll do whatever they want at their own pace.
                    "KDE Wayland works on FreeBSD" and the article itself lists quite a number of showstoppers and a ton of things which must be done manually just to run it.

                    Have you ever used actual OS'es, sir? You know what really works? You click the power/unlock button, enter your password/touch a fingerprint scanner and you're greeted with a graphical desktop. Xorg does work on FreeBSD out of the box. Wayland has slowly been hacked into. And, no, FreeBSD is not dropping X.org now or any time in the future. They cannot afford such luxury.

                    It's not about responsibility, you've managed to completely turn the topic upside down. RedHat and people here claim X.org is dead, no one is interested in it, everyone is dropping it left and right. X.org is dead as a RedHat's project the company invested a ton of money and resources in. They don't want to do that any longer. RedHat is not Linux (thought admittedly the most important Linux distro). X.org is not Linux.
                    Last edited by avis; 28 November 2023, 12:43 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by avis View Post
                      What's in there for you if I make such an announcement?
                      Nobody believes you wish to do charity work for me. No need to characterize it in such a manner.

                      It would however, put a stop to you berating people on the forum. That I would actually benefit from.

                      Originally posted by avis View Post
                      For all the work I've done to make Linux better (including contributing to quite trifling projects such as the kernel and GCC) I can just say "f-k it" and leave Linux for good.
                      You can state it publicly, no need to couch your words as we are all adults. You demand free developer time from others specifically and exclusively on X11, but you're not going to do that said development time yourself on X11.

                      That's not how a leader acts. If you want others to behave a certain way, you have to be first out of the gate.

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