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Red Hat Enterprise Linux 10 Dropping The X.Org Server Except For XWayland

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  • #41
    Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
    Yes. AMD graphics developers. They say that one of the biggest reasons why Linux/FOSS doesn't have feature parity with Windows is literally because of Wayland and the umpteen display managers situation.
    Any quote you might link here?

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    • #42
      Originally posted by boeroboy View Post
      The Red Hat power grab continues. If it's not forcing everyone onto systemd it's forcing everyone onto the next rewrite that they control to stay relevant through false threats. I predict a major boycott starting with Fedora as they're already cutting out XOrg and leaving most users with half-baked replacements of critical daily usage apps.

      Red Hat survived the systemd blowback because init is vital to both servers and desktop usage. It won't survive this because RHEL and Fedora are far less relevant outside of the server space.
      no one forced systemd, distros adopted it because it makes their lifes easier (upstream can ship .service files) and system administrators wanted it due to its much better feature set.

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      • #43
        Originally posted by piotrj3 View Post

        Sorry, when Xorg is definitly not modern, neither is Wayland. Qt doesn't work beautifully on Wayland (a lot of issues that are diffrent on diffrent DEs), neither does OBS (modern recording software), neither GPU drivers (requiring explicit synchronization model), neither modern APIs (implementing Vulkan on open source drivers was pain due to implicitly synced stack).

        Not to mention modern stuff I would expect to have perfect VRR support (nope), HDR (missing except gamescope magic), DRM-leasing (required by a lot of things, Gnome nope), color grading (partial, and annoying), position of window, surviving crashing of compositor (I think only on KDE Qt apps have that possibility everything else dies) and so on.

        Sorry Wayland is not modern graphics stack, especially when it pissed off Nvidia, AMD, Intel, Valve and way more engineers.
        Funny - all things you mentioned are already there, like explicit sync, good display recording etc., - or in the pipe. The thing that makes Wayland modern here: everything *can* be implemented in a pretty clean manner. And window positioninng - that's a discussion for itself, but arguably it's not *modern* to do that. It's just bad 90s design still hanging around.

        The fact that it's modern is also why it gets picked up so widely - be in Linux desktop, embedded, ChromeOS - even Windows.

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        • #44
          Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post

          Yes. AMD graphics developers. They say that one of the biggest reasons why Linux/FOSS doesn't have feature parity with Windows is literally because of Wayland and the umpteen display managers situation. Features that don't go directly into the driver need to be added to the display manager and, unlike Windows, there is no centralized display manager to work with, only a protocol to propose standards where from there they'd have to either submit code to every display manager or hope some random developer adds the AMD extensions to their display manager.

          They can't just implement it once and let the rest of the world piggyback off their efforts so they're just not doing it. I don't blame them. Do they pick Mutter? KWin? Wlroots? Weston? Just the protocol?

          For all the good Wayland offers, it's very stifling to progress due to not having a centralized display manager solution to work with. Imagine how Linux audio would be everyone had to create their own sound server because they decided that PipeWire was going to be just a protocol instead of being backwards compatible with PulseAudio while simultaneously covering JACK's use-cases. In that world there would be situations where we don't get noise cancelling because the KDE version doesn't implement as much of the PipeWire protocol as the GNOME version does so KDE would have inferior audio. That would suck so hard.

          Instead we have a centralized audio solution in PipeWire that everyone can tap into and everyone else can piggyback off of. And there was much praise.
          Having a shared display server imho would be good in the Wayland world, but the same arguments that caused every desktop to make its own compositor, also apply to making its own Wayland server, so if there was no luck then don't have any luck for it now.

          Also, GNOME is extremely tied to Mutter, and untying it is asking for a rewrite of the project.

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          • #45
            Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post

            Yes. AMD graphics developers. They say that one of the biggest reasons why Linux/FOSS doesn't have feature parity with Windows is literally because of Wayland and the umpteen display managers situation.
            Can you make a concrete example? Or you claiming that's the agreed opinion of most AMD graphic devs? Because for every random opinion from *some* graphic dev I can give you an example from a contradicting one.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by treba View Post

              Can you make a concrete example? Or you claiming that's the agreed opinion of most AMD graphic devs? Because for every random opinion from *some* graphic dev I can give you an example from a contradicting one.
              Many things need now wide spread in the Windows world need to be created by each individual Wayland compositor.

              HDR
              Non-Display Outputs (VR)
              FreeSync
              Session Recovery
              Seamless Terminal Sessions (Remote RDP swap to Physical Desktop and Back)

              Apart from the latter, these are not "niche" things anymore.

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              • #47
                Avis' stages of grief over the slow death of x11 what stage are we in now?

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by Hibbelharry View Post

                  Any quote you might link here?
                  Unfortunately, no. I post so much that it makes searching my history quite difficult.

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by avis View Post

                    I'm no longer interested in this conversation.
                    Let's hope so. Your usual bullcrap is impossible to endure.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post

                      Yes. AMD graphics developers. They say that one of the biggest reasons why Linux/FOSS doesn't have feature parity with Windows is literally because of Wayland and the umpteen display managers situation. Features that don't go directly into the driver need to be added to the display manager and, unlike Windows, there is no centralized display manager to work with, only a protocol to propose standards where from there they'd have to either submit code to every display manager or hope some random developer adds the AMD extensions to their display manager.

                      They can't just implement it once and let the rest of the world piggyback off their efforts so they're just not doing it. I don't blame them. Do they pick Mutter? KWin? Wlroots? Weston? Just the protocol?

                      For all the good Wayland offers, it's very stifling to progress due to not having a centralized display manager solution to work with. Imagine how Linux audio would be everyone had to create their own sound server because they decided that PipeWire was going to be just a protocol instead of being backwards compatible with PulseAudio while simultaneously covering JACK's use-cases. In that world there would be situations where we don't get noise cancelling because the KDE version doesn't implement as much of the PipeWire protocol as the GNOME version does so KDE would have inferior audio. That would suck so hard.

                      Instead we have a centralized audio solution in PipeWire that everyone can tap into and everyone else can piggyback off of. And there was much praise.
                      From technical point of view Weston should be reference implementation while providing libweston as a way to easily implement Wayland compositors. It should be core that could be reused in many Wayland compositor implementations. But it failed, it's useless and no one uses it(with some very niche cases).
                      What is the point of reference implementation if no one references to it?
                      I believe Weston should be discontinued and only libweston should go on(with suit of automatic test to prevent regresions). This unfortunately would involve actually fixing libweston and replacing existing implementations with it.
                      I somehow don't see it coming.
                      RBEU #1000000000 - Registered Bad English User

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