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Red Hat Enterprise Linux 10 Dropping The X.Org Server Except For XWayland

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  • #91
    Originally posted by avis View Post
    The person who wrote this statement went to great lengths to portray X.org as something that requires a ton of dedication, work and resources which is just utterly untrue.

    X.org has been in pure maintenance mode for over a decade now. It requires nothing more than occasional security patches. That's it. Otherwise it works beautifully.

    This is not X.org's depreciation, this is imposing Wayland on everyone whether they like it or not.
    Who's gonna tell him to actually try playing games, do anything requiring color sensitive work, or watch movies or play games that have HDR support?

    The fact of the matter is that VRR/FreeSync is extremely hacked together under X11, color management for displays is a joke, and it's not possible to get 10-bit color working properly under X11. And that's completely brushing aside some of the security related concerns with X11, or the fact that it's incredibly easy to develop things like keyloggers.

    It's been under maintenance mode because it's a mess from 40+ year old standards, and because nobody wants to wade through the mess that's it's code base, not because it's perfect. I swear, some people here are legit the same kinds of people on the Steam forums and the general gaming zeitgeist that defend low effort and lazy dogwater PC ports of games either because they have an agenda to prevent progress or because they live under the constant cope that's a communist regime where any phone that isn't backdoored from China is taxed out of existence, and use hardware older than the Xbox 360 at this point, failing to take into consideration that this kind of work and constant improvement benefits them too (whether that's due to optimization or other things). The world will just continue to progress without your copium. The year of the Linux desktop will never come if this attitude keeps up.

    Wayland isn't being forced down people's throats as much as it's getting a bunch of funding to improve issues with it, so it is actually usable for the vast majority of people, and for professional use cases too. This is before getting to xdg and other organizations swiftly fixing issues with certain edge case scenarios (Such as VSync in games, or screensharing on Discord/Slack/etc). X11, software packaging, whatever there was before NetworkManager, and PulseAudio have been big issues for a while preventing more people from daily driving Linux. The only people defending X11 at this point, from what I can tell from basic pattern recognition, are Manjaro users posing as Arch users (just use regular Arch instead, or Gentoo if you rely on the AUR so much), and NVIDIA GPU users (Which in that case, you got greater issues to worry about than their drivers).

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    • #92
      Originally posted by avis View Post

      Can you put your money where your mouth is? Validation and testing for Xorg has been streamlined for decades, unlike with Wayland where nothing is even standardized at this point. You can test/validate Mutter but you cannot do the same with Kwin, let alone other lesser Wayland display servers. Xorg has not seen a "huge" amount of CVEs either. And right now Xorg works a ton better for the vast majority of Linux users who are not Gnome users.

      I'm typing this message in XFCE which is 100% unusable under Wayland because it doesn't yet have its own Wayland display server. And there's nothing that I can complain about. How is it not "works beautifully"? Looks like Wayland proponents have now resorted to the extreme forms of gaslighting: "You're using Xorg and having no issues? No! It cannot be so, you do have issues!"
      GNOME is constantly insistent on doing things that are way different from the Wayland specifications. No VRR support is working yet, and PCSX2 recently dropped Wayland support because GNOME's implementation of it sucks. Works way better under KDE Plasma if you ask me.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by avis View Post
        Normally it's just one: Windows, MacOS, iOS, Android, ChromeOS - all extremely successful operating systems, all with a single graphical server.
        Funny that you mention ChromeOS. It provides a wayland based protocol. Their UI is wayland based.
        So it would seem Wayland doesn't prevent Google from being successful.

        There was never a time with multiple X11 servers in Linux or any other Unix.
        Sure, there way. When I started with Linux, you had a different X server for every graphic driver. There was an intel X server, an NVidia X server and so on...

        Later, after the module loader was implemented, there was an XFree X server and an Xorg X server which slowly diverged feature-wise. Some distributions came with Xorg, others with XFree.

        And surely, there were always different X servers for special needs, like you said: XMing, XVNC, Xrbf, Xwayland, Xvfb etc.
        They were mostly compatible. And there is TinyX and KDrive.

        I would figure, If we reduce the number of wayland servers to mutter and wlroots (KDE is switching to wlroots I've been told) then the amount of different implementations is already lower than the number of different X servers we have today.

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        • #94
          I have no problem with a new display server being implemented.

          The mystifying aspect for me to understand is why a new server was chosen that requires applications to actually be rewritten to utilize it.

          Really, that's just mind boggling.

          There are a plethora of applications that will never be rewritten because the resources to do so are unavailable, and unfortunately XWayland only partially implements X server functionality.

          But hey, I don't want to start a flame war or get into an argument about it.

          I just wanted to put in my two cents and state that obvious fact, which is sometimes drowned in the dissent.

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          • #95
            This is nothing is nothing new. Fedora hasn't used xserver in years. Even KDE6 will Default to Wayland an Gnome. If people gonna still rely on. DEAD WOOD THERE gonna have to go to Debain.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by muncrief View Post
              I have no problem with a new display server being implemented.

              The mystifying aspect for me to understand is why a new server was chosen that requires applications to actually be rewritten to utilize it.

              Really, that's just mind boggling.
              Because the problem is not Xorg server but the whole X standard, is 40 years of legacy, bad decision or decision made for hardware/use cases that doesn't exist anymore. You can not just fix Xorg server by rewriting it without completely changing the application api too. You would end up with mostly the same crap we already have.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by agd5f View Post

                With Wayland compositors the compositor is what talks KMS to the kernel driver and handles the display management. If you wanted to enable a new feature in the display hardware, you'd need to plumb that feature into every compositor. However, even if that were not the case, there is a rule in drm drivers that you can't add any new vendor specific display properties. There is good reason for this. For one, as I said earlier, you'd need to plumb this through every compositor, but more importantly, it provides an inconsistent experience across vendors. Something like "contrast" means a lot of things to a lot of people and one vendor's implementation may be completely different from another's. In the early days of xrandr support, we say tons of vendor specific properties that each had different names and semantics. With wayland based compositors we have a chance to try and clean that up, but the downside is that you now need to built consensus which can sometimes take a while.

                With regard to wayland based compositors vs X, there are a lot of things that just plain can't be done reasonably with X. You really need something new. For general usability X is fine, but when it comes of some of the more niche features, it really has trouble. Some examples:
                HDR/color management - X visuals don't have a way to handle floating point surface formats
                Planes - X doesn't handle planes well. These are required for low power compositing and video playback. Wayland at least handles these, but few compositors take advantage of this today which is why video playback tends to use more power on Linux compared to windows.
                Multi-display - With the exception of zaphod mode, which has a whole pile of additional limitations, X uses a single logical surface for multiple monitors rather than one surface per display. As monitor resolutions get bigger, you start to run into coordinate addressing limits on older hardware that prevents some setups from even working in the first place. On top of that, having a single logical surface means that you'll always get tearing on some of your displays if your monitors have different timings. Multi-display freesync is also not possible with this scheme.
                Thank you.

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                • #98
                  Is promoting software piracy OK now then?

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by avis View Post

                    Normally it's just one: Windows, MacOS, iOS, Android, ChromeOS - all extremely successful operating systems, all with a single graphical server.
                    macOS is far from successful and Linux beat it in market share on Steam. Maybe even on desktops. Android (and probably ChromeOS) are terrible to use. However, everything you mentioned share something common: they came pre-installed and that's why they're so successful (except macOS).

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                    • Originally posted by muncrief View Post
                      I have no problem with a new display server being implemented.

                      The mystifying aspect for me to understand is why a new server was chosen that requires applications to actually be rewritten to utilize it.

                      Really, that's just mind boggling.

                      There are a plethora of applications that will never be rewritten because the resources to do so are unavailable, and unfortunately XWayland only partially implements X server functionality.

                      But hey, I don't want to start a flame war or get into an argument about it.

                      I just wanted to put in my two cents and state that obvious fact, which is sometimes drowned in the dissent.
                      redhat 10 isnt targetting servers anymore, its basically for in car entertainment systems and TVs and nothing else. So very little needs or will be rewritten.

                      servers should use an openela based distribution once they become available.

                      If you want to prepare for that now, oracle has migration documentation for theirs here:
                      Switching to Oracle Linux is as simple as running the centos2ol.sh script. This script will automatically switch a CentOS instance to Oracle Linux by removing any CentOS-specific packages or replacing them with the Oracle Linux equivalent.

                      and here
                      Last edited by mSparks; 28 November 2023, 03:25 PM.

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