Wayland Color Management Protocol Posted For Weston

[darkbasic]

I don't think it'll take that long, at least not for AMD with the open source drivers.

Remember that along with the compositor you need actual software to support it. Two years is a reasonable assumption IMO.

[rmfx]

Just work internally as raw linear data and let OCIO configs remap the colours.

[Sethox]

Remember that along with the compositor you need actual software to support it. Two years is a reasonable assumption IMO.

Depends in what space, Valve has Gamescope that already supports HDR. With Wine Wayland being developed steadily, I believe that will also grant for HDR support one way or another. Still years off is a little bit much although it's all just assumptions.

[billyswong]

it's way more complicated then that, but ill pose a set of questions to get you thinking, what happens when you have a SDR window (firefox) and a 4000nit brightness video? without tonemapping, if your magical display is bright enough, you wont even be able to see whats on the firefox screen.

This is where all the SDR / HDR content got messed up *fundamentally*. Those filmmakers want to specify an absolute brightness to their video content. But outside cinema or home cinema, nobody use that. We set our TV / monitor brightness in accordance to environment and preference of our eyes. In this sense HLG is a more realistic HDR format, as it doesn't create such unnecessary dilemma right from the beginning.

Even for home cinema, one will want a proper specification of how bright is the SDR white per scene, just for the sake of overlaying captions. Obviously, if such information/metadata is given, there won't be difficulty for one to decide when to tonemap SDR content to the HDR, and when to do a compromise when the "SDR white" for a scene is set too bright or too dim to the user preference / monitor capacity.

You have an display capable of DCI-p3, and you have 2 images on screen, one DCI-p3 and one gamma2.2. How do you render this?

Most "HDR" monitors in the market are not capable of 100% P3 colorspace. It is extremely hard to buy one that is 100% P3. This make the whole color accuracy thing ridiculous. There is no way for one to devise one single objective scheme on how to tonemap a P3 image displaying on a 9x% P3 monitor. Shall we desaturate the P3 images color together with sRGB images? Or we desaturate the P3 images only for the most saturated part while keeping sRGB images (and P3 image portions within the sRGB color range) accurate? Or we desaturate P3 images evenly and let sRGB images color mismatch with the P3 images if placed together?

The stupidity here is metadata for how to handle these shouldn't have been needed. Unlike luminosity, nearly no users need relative color saturation in viewing photos or watching movies.

[F.Ultra]

Without proper color management to be able to load icc files wayland is pretty much unusable in a semi-professional environment where you need your monitors calibrated. Real professionals probably have devices that can be hardware calibrated directly but even me and me eyes not doing any actual graphics work but just regular office work suffer heavily from working infront of an uncalibrated monitor. Can't understand the direction with forcing wayland on everyone in the near future when such basic things aren't implemented yet, imho this is currently the most important blocker from adopting wayland and I'm not talking about HDR here.

Looks like you _can_ load ICC in Wayland now, just that there is no GUI for it yet: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/ICC_profiles go down to 3.4 for the details on Wayland.

And if I run "colormgr get-devices" and "colormgr get-profiles on my Ubuntu 23.04 on Wayland it looks like it applied the correct ICC automatically.

[Quackdoc]

Just work internally as raw linear data and let OCIO configs remap the colours.

if only it was that simple, OCIO could potentially add quite a bit of overhead.

This is where all the SDR / HDR content got messed up *fundamentally*. Those filmmakers want to specify an absolute brightness to their video content. But outside cinema or home cinema, nobody use that. We set our TV / monitor brightness in accordance to environment and preference of our eyes. In this sense HLG is a more realistic HDR format, as it doesn't create such unnecessary dilemma right from the beginning.

Even for home cinema, one will want a proper specification of how bright is the SDR white per scene, just for the sake of overlaying captions. Obviously, if such information/metadata is given, there won't be difficulty for one to decide when to tonemap SDR content to the HDR, and when to do a compromise when the "SDR white" for a scene is set too bright or too dim to the user preference / monitor capacity.

What they specify is not an "absolute brightness" but an "intended brightness" This is why we have "References". Colorists aren't stupid. The processes, yes is to work in a reference environment, IE 203nits and do color grading like that. What this then allows you to do from a device perspective, is to properly manage the output in accordance with the display. This means that any properly managed environment like say OSX, will have proper rendering of the image regardless of display brightness.

I highly reccomend watching [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=NzhUzeNUBuM), It explains things in a great simple way, and it does cover some of this.

Most "HDR" monitors in the market are not capable of 100% P3 colorspace. It is extremely hard to buy one that is 100% P3. This make the whole color accuracy thing ridiculous. There is no way for one to devise one single objective scheme on how to tonemap a P3 image displaying on a 9x% P3 monitor. Shall we desaturate the P3 images color together with sRGB images? Or we desaturate the P3 images only for the most saturated part while keeping sRGB images (and P3 image portions within the sRGB color range) accurate? Or we desaturate P3 images evenly and let sRGB images color mismatch with the P3 images if placed together?

The stupidity here is metadata for how to handle these shouldn't have been needed. Unlike luminosity, nearly no users need relative color saturation in viewing photos or watching movies.

This is absolutely NOT true. first and foremost, you can still get really good P3 HDR monitors for around 800-1000 usd more then good enough for someone trying to get decent enough colors. If you just want the extra gamut for enjoyment you can find decent enough displays for around 300usd. you absolutely don't *Need* 100% P3 in all scenarios or even all that many! a calibrated P3 monitor at 95% is still far better then srgb. I can get a asus proart display at 95% dci-p3 (HDR400 only but we can still disregard this color work in many cases) for a mere 400 CAD, a wild deal perfect for any amateur that wants to dip their toe into colour work. for an additional 400 CAD, you can get an 600nit display, at 800 CAD that really isn't a bad proposition.

[damonlynch]

Back in the day, when Apple was designing its fully colour managed pipeline for the desktop, they used the expertise of the colour management expert Andrew Rodney. I presume they paid him handsomely for his consulting service.

Obviously a parallel process never happened early in the design of Wayland.

I'm curious as to why. There must be several reasons. I suspect money is far from the most important.

[Quackdoc]

Back in the day, when Apple was designing its fully colour managed pipeline for the desktop, they used the expertise of the colour management expert Andrew Rodney. I presume they paid him handsomely for his consulting service.

Obviously a parallel process never happened early in the design of Wayland.

I'm curious as to why. There must be several reasons. I suspect money is far from the most important.

at the very least troy sobotka, (best known for https://hg2dc.com/ I suppose) is getting involved now to some degree with the color documentation here https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pq/color-and-hdr

[smitty3268]

Can't understand the direction with forcing wayland on everyone in the near future when such basic things aren't implemented yet, imho this is currently the most important blocker from adopting wayland and I'm not talking about HDR here.

I think Red Hat expects professionals to be using RHEL, which is sticking with X for the near future. Not Fedora.

By the time RHEL updates, they want to work through all the issues with Wayland by beta testing it with users in Fedora first. That's not the first, or the last time that kind of thing will happen.

[oiaohm]

I think Red Hat expects professionals to be using RHEL, which is sticking with X for the near future. Not Fedora.

By the time RHEL updates, they want to work through all the issues with Wayland by beta testing it with users in Fedora first. That's not the first, or the last time that kind of thing will happen.

There is something to remember if you want color management under Linux to work you will not be using Nvidia. Yes if colord loads and you are using Nvidia your monitor color correction is do you fell lucky sometimes it right sometimes other time totally random screwed up mess. RHEL 8 default is Wayland if your GPU is not Nvidia as of 2019.