KDE On Wayland: "The Biggest Thing Needed Now Is Adoption By 3rd Party Apps"

[oiaohm]

You said you got it working.
On AMD
On wayland.

You are a liar, there is zero chance of that.
AMD can't do VR (unless you are using sonys PS5 drivers, not even XBOX has managed to get it working, let alone unpaid part time enthusiasts writing the AMD linux drivers)
And SteamVRs wayland implementation doesn't work, even if you have a DRM leasing compositor that will facilitate it to even start.

Funny someone upvoted you when I include the evidence that you are a fibing pants on fire.

https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2023/08/steamvr-beta-gets-some-improvements-for-linux/

How have you been getting on with VR on Linux? I've just re-done my setup today with my AMD GPU (6800 XT), and despite a few niggles it now runs Beat Saber very nicely once again.

That not a console that a desktop GPU and Linux. AMD can absolutely do VR on Linux.
Then scroll down the page a bit

Just tried it out in KDE Wayland (wish mutter had DRM leasing support...), it's *finally* in a state where I could recommend it for beta users. Performance was great, async reprojection worked fine with Nvidia 535 drivers and I played more than an hour of Vertigo 2 without any issues.

Yep here it working with nvidia drivers as long as the person was using the beta drivers with KDE Wayland. I did include the link that should have been relative to you as a Nvidia user.

Do I need to provide the link to the person testing with KDE wayland recently with AMD GPU and it does also work.

So its not zero chance that it works. Yes there have been time frames where VR with AMD has not worked just like there have been time frames with closed source Nvidia drivers where VR has not worked. Catch is at the moment we are in time frame that AMD VR does work with Wayland solutions that support DRM leasing with distribution include mesa that is somewhat current like the one I use that I told you I use ages ago. Also some point in the future Nvidia with production drivers with Wayland for VR as long as your Wayland compositor support DRM leasing should be working as well.

[mSparks]

Its not zero chance that VR is working with AMD hardware mSparks. Its about time you stop this stupid claim.

You said you got it working.
On AMD
On wayland.

You are a liar, there is zero chance of that.
AMD can't do VR (unless you are using sonys PS5 drivers, not even XBOX has managed to get it working, let alone unpaid part time enthusiasts writing the AMD linux drivers)
And SteamVRs wayland implementation doesn't work, even if you have a DRM leasing compositor that will facilitate it to even start.

[oiaohm]

Truth is, AMDs problems on xorg-server are AMD driver issues, wayland doesn't fix them for AMD, it just layers more problems on top. Nvidia has a highly talented team (best, highest paid in the business) that do more for linux every week than wayland developers have done in getting on for 2 decades.

Yet for some reason Nvidia developers cannot get explicit sync and implicit sync working with each other like AMD and Intel developers can. Nvidia drivers have not supported fbdev until recently at all. Xnest and Xepher not working correctly under X11.. There are a long list of problems the Nvidia developers have not been fixing.

Having money for so called highly talented developers does not mean you don't have a stack of jerks. Reason why valve is funding zink development is partly because Nvidia driver people got the stupid idea that hey well will force everyone who coded a opengl program to update their program to support explicit sync or have their program fail because we are going to break opengl standard implicit sync promisees. AMD and Intel and Zink and Open source Nvidia driver have got implicit sync emulation on top of explicit sync kernel driver working so opengl can still function as per specification.

The game you like has a problem with AMD for a simple reason it tried todo something that is in fact against Opengl and Vulkan specification. This is a common problem with Nvidia drivers. Hey there are specifications how stuff should be done we will take them as guide lines and break how the stuff is documented to function.

So no, doesnt help you were on AMD, there is zero chance you got VR working on AMD wayland, .

Here we go assuming again.

https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2023/08/steamvr-beta-gets-some-improvements-for-linux/

Its not zero chance that VR is working with AMD hardware mSparks. Its about time you stop this stupid claim.

VR works on Wayland the reality it does not work on x.org either. Both you take out a drm lease and bipass X11 and Wayland. Yes VR controllers are evdev/hidraw direct the drm lease is basically bypass the complete X11 server or wayland compositor for most VR games this is how it is.

Really I wish gnome had implemented the Wayland protocol DRM lease extension.

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/67

Yes the gnome mutter developer ack the extension to be implemented then has not implemented it. Yes ACK that they accepted wayland DRM lease extension 2 years ago. Yes this by Gnome Mutter developers annoys me as much as the way Nvidia breaks stuff.

[mSparks]

My base system has never been Fedora either. There is a catch here I have told you in the past what my base system is yet you are still random-ally guessing

https://forum.winehq.org/viewtopic.php?t=28416

Except you presume this problem starts with Wayland compositors. X11 windows managers have been causing problems for applications for years.

xnest and xepher not working fully with Nvidia has been a major problem. With wayland you test you application with Weston user has a problem you can tell user to run weston on top of their wayland and if that fixes the problem its their choice Wayland compositor.

This nesting/proxy feature is not a minor problem not working. Its a major problem for application developers.

Yes not being able to run weston stacked on top of your X11 desktop because Nvidia drivers don't work right is a major problem.

The fragmentation here is not new. Wayland the functionality to stack weston on top is not working neither does Xwayland.

Working on one particular install has normal for commercial application on Linux for decades. This is why item like distrobox are important.

https://forums.presonus.com/viewtopic.php?f=419&t=52567

Here we go assuming again. Where does that say the person was using KDE. Also just to be fun that how the program fails if you happen to attempt to run it on X11 without Wayland. Yes there is lack of a clear message what the problem is.




I did not say it did not work for me. I said my base system was not ubuntu.

I am not past using distrobox or flatpak or other solutions that provide applications with the runtime they want so they work. Of course Nvidia drivers are serous problems when you have todo this. Driver miss match issues, xnest/xepher not working with acceleration(yes cases that application needs particular X11 windows manager or they are not working),

There are quite a few things where losing a little bit of performance due to stacking is worth the trade off to be able to run the application.

mSparks you want me to argue that wayland fragmentation should not exist. Lets be real I am not going to because that not going way any time soon. We were not able to solve the problem in the time of x11 windows managers we are not going to solve it now. Most important thing is that the tools to deal with the incompatibilities work. Next/proxy feature is part of the tools required to deal with the incompatibilities as they crop up.

The main problem seems to be you continually make claims that are not backed up by reality. you live in this fantasy land where VR works on wayland, where xorg is not maintained and where X11/xorg problems are so serious people would commit to using xwayland - which is measurably worse than not using xwayland. and where the developers of X11 and xorg - who must be 80 years old now - are working hard on wayland instead.

The biggest problem for wayland is not 3rd parties adopting it, the biggest problems for wayland is it offers no incentive for anyone to adopt it, nothing works, and it doesn't deliver on any of its promises, especially on AMD, but even for nvidia where everything works great on xorg-server.

Truth is, AMDs problems on xorg-server are AMD driver issues, wayland doesn't fix them for AMD, it just layers more problems on top. Nvidia has a highly talented team (best, highest paid in the business) that do more for linux every week than wayland developers have done in getting on for 2 decades.

So no, doesnt help you were on AMD, there is zero chance you got VR working on AMD wayland, and the rest of your hyperbole is just an attempt at distraction because you have been called out on your other lies so many times now no one believes a word you say.

[oiaohm]

Well, it doesn't work with Fedora 38 wayland on KDE... so.... this must be you not proving there is no fragmentation in wayland by praising an application that only works on very specific wayland installs and not the ones you use

My base system has never been Fedora either. There is a catch here I have told you in the past what my base system is yet you are still random-ally guessing

https://forum.winehq.org/viewtopic.php?t=28416

Except you presume this problem starts with Wayland compositors. X11 windows managers have been causing problems for applications for years.

xnest and xepher not working fully with Nvidia has been a major problem. With wayland you test you application with Weston user has a problem you can tell user to run weston on top of their wayland and if that fixes the problem its their choice Wayland compositor.

This nesting/proxy feature is not a minor problem not working. Its a major problem for application developers.

Yes not being able to run weston stacked on top of your X11 desktop because Nvidia drivers don't work right is a major problem.

The fragmentation here is not new. Wayland the functionality to stack weston on top is not working neither does Xwayland.

Working on one particular install has normal for commercial application on Linux for decades. This is why item like distrobox are important.

https://forums.presonus.com/viewtopic.php?f=419&t=52567[/QUOTE]

Here we go assuming again. Where does that say the person was using KDE. Also just to be fun that how the program fails if you happen to attempt to run it on X11 without Wayland. Yes there is lack of a clear message what the problem is.

Oh, so you just think that posting praises of a wayland application that doesn't work for you is a good way to prove that wayland works for you.

I did not say it did not work for me. I said my base system was not ubuntu.

I am not past using distrobox or flatpak or other solutions that provide applications with the runtime they want so they work. Of course Nvidia drivers are serous problems when you have todo this. Driver miss match issues, xnest/xepher not working with acceleration(yes cases that application needs particular X11 windows manager or they are not working),

There are quite a few things where losing a little bit of performance due to stacking is worth the trade off to be able to run the application.

mSparks you want me to argue that wayland fragmentation should not exist. Lets be real I am not going to because that not going way any time soon. We were not able to solve the problem in the time of x11 windows managers we are not going to solve it now. Most important thing is that the tools to deal with the incompatibilities work. Next/proxy feature is part of the tools required to deal with the incompatibilities as they crop up.

[mSparks]

Also I have never been a Ubuntu user as base system. Also you made a very big presume of wrong

Oh, so you just think that posting praises of a wayland application that doesn't work for you is a good way to prove that wayland works for you.

Also you need to learn not to presume

I promise from now on not to presume you are telling the truth and not stupid enough to think that posting praises of a wayland application that doesn't work for you is a good way to prove that wayland works for you.

The program requires a Ubuntu 23.04 runtime that does not mean the program requires Gnome or is tested with Gnome.

Well, it doesn't work with Fedora 38 wayland on KDE... so.... this must be you not proving there is no fragmentation in wayland by praising an application that only works on very specific wayland installs and not the ones you use

https://forums.presonus.com/viewtopic.php?f=419&t=52567

Most of the applications I use are in fact Wayland robust because they are qt application.

You asked me not to presume, so why should I presume you are telling the truth when you said:

I have got VR working on Wayland mind you it helps my setup is all AMD and I use KDE.

Another page on, and no evidence forthcoming. You are making it very hard for me to not presume you are a windows freak that hates linux and spends their days spreading lies. It's that kind of garbage that makes people associate all of Linux with the shitshow that is wayland.

[oiaohm]

Oh, I assumed when you were talking up an application that only works on ubuntu gnome in wayland you must have switched since then.

There is something you have never considered as well. Most of the applications I use are in fact Wayland robust because they are qt application. I can change Wayland compositors while I am only using them at will without stopping anything.

KDE wayland user we are not locked to one wayland compositor. So something not working right with one compositor is not hard for us to switch to another one todo something. This does result it having a better clue what are implementation issues and what are protocol issues.

Also I have never been a Ubuntu user as base system. Also you made a very big presume of wrong

https://support.presonus.com/hc/en-us/articles/19214558269581-Linux-Getting-Started

Also you need to learn not to presume

Ubuntu 23.04 with Wayland session

That is not always gnome. WSL2 that Ubuntu default is Weston. Weston and Gnome are both installed with each other with Ubuntu.

Headless server Ubuntu 23.04 with wayland applications install you will find weston installed so you can do RDP/VNC weston.

The program requires a Ubuntu 23.04 runtime that does not mean the program requires Gnome or is tested with Gnome.

mSparks something else to think about for someone on Ubuntu why would I know that distrobox was the makers instructions for those not using Ubuntu. That right because my core system is not Ubuntu.

Yes everyone has the bad habit of thinking "Ubuntu 23.04 with Wayland" equals Gnome. This is going to catch people out at some point with some commercial application release saying "Ubuntu 23.04 with Wayland" as requirements they attempt to run the program on Ubuntu Gnome and it fails completely because application was only tested on Ubuntu Weston and some feature that implemented in Weston is not implemented in Gnome yet.

Gnome wayland being feature trail of hunt is going to cause some future issues for users if they don't catch up.

[oiaohm]

But since you are still having so much trouble recording the VR setup you pretended to have working I'm gonna have to assume when you actually tried it in wayland you ran into the input latency problem I was talking about. You should file a bug for that since you care so much.

I don't have anywhere to upload a Video to. Its not that I have problems recording VR setup. I don't have a youtube channel or anything else like that.

Think about it in the past i have given performance numbers in text you have laughed at because it was on a system with old AMD GPU. Just because I did not do them on something fancy and new. Instead of providing nice solid data you keep on giving videos.

I have not run into the input latency problem you are talking about on my AMD GPU and CPU setup.

Where is the flame graph data showing the input problem mSparks. Yes this is text data.

[mSparks]

I did not switch back remember I am KDE user and have been for a very long time.
driver.

Oh, I assumed when you were talking up an application that only works on ubuntu gnome in wayland you must have switched since then.

But since you are still having so much trouble recording the VR setup you pretended to have working I'm gonna have to assume when you actually tried it in wayland you ran into the input latency problem I was talking about. You should file a bug for that since you care so much.

^thats me actually assuming.

[oiaohm]

ouch. Their only criticism is being wayland only and no redhat support since it needs jack. That has to hurt.

"fully functional JACK audio server" on the Studio One requirement list is in fact by the developer answer in the forums pipewire jack as that was all its been tested with and that is their define of a "fully functional jack audio server" in testing because that was the one in WSL2 default Ubuntu setup.

Ubuntu only what is the default Linux distribution of WSL2 that Ubuntu.
https://forums.presonus.com/viewtopi...1c7517e2352a4f 9d78bd8221b654
Gets even better install instructions for distributions that re not Ubuntu. That right use distrobox and install Ubuntu on top of your current distribution.

Welcome to docker containers making it to desktop applications and the fun that brings.

Anyway, Im not sure what you think that has to do with sharing a recording of you doing VR on wayland.
preferably on gnome. Since that is the default of popular OSes like ubuntu.

Someone wants there ass kicked.

If you cant you should probably concede wayland doesnt work for you and switch back to X11 like everyone else.

I did not switch back remember I am KDE user and have been for a very long time.

https://www.phoronix.com/news/NVIDIA-545.23.06-Linux-Beta

Someone knew about Nvidia driver update coming being me. Now please update you Nvidia drivers and try VR with every wayland compositor bar gnome. Then admit the reason why VR was not working under KDE/sway/weston/gamescope...every bar gnome with Wayland was in fact Nvidia broken drivers.

Yes this driver finally adds support for Linux kernel framebuffer the Linux kernel original native graphical so when you switch between X11 and the text terminal the system does not random-ally die.

Now lets think again on Studio One you Nvidia users are in trouble. Distrobox solution presonus what the problem. Simple what happens when your host distribution has different Nvidia driver versions than the distribution inside the distrobox. Please note mesa3d drivers cope with being out of alignment between kernel version and mesa3d version so this issue does not effect AMD and Intel drivers under Linux. Heck even amd closed source user space runtime is coded to cope with this problem. AMD and Intel have design their drivers that you can in fact use multi versions side by side with each other.

Don't say the fix is install different version in the distrobox or the host. Software vendor does not have to support installs using Nvidia drivers that don't come from the distribution repo. Yes few different applications using different distributions all demanding distrobox installs exactly as upstream distribution for support welcome to future checkmate for your Nvidia users and it coming.

You are needing proxy/nesting with this change in software distribution as well. Think about it if you can run the distributions xnest or xepher and get it work that allows the distributions differences in the X11 protocol to work.

X11 protocol added nesting support very early. Parties like Nvidia and ATI with their drivers use to not support X11 nesting. Now we have graphical programs being provided to users with instructions to use docker containers. Nesting under X11 or proxy under Wayland(same thing different name basically) comes important.

Also gets worse. Notice that this is the beta driver for using open source kernel code for everything Nvidia. Why is this going to happen. Microsoft requirement on distributions to have signed boot loaded that drivers have to signed by the distribution. Linux distributions are don't want to sign something that they cannot correctly inspect. Thinking that issue could result in revoked secureboot key.

Also read the Microsoft paper work the user space drivers of X11 x.org server count. So yes that nvidia bit you load into the x.org bare metal server has a problem.

OpenELA is not going to change the problems Microsoft has caused with secureboot rules and WSL2.

Then of course you have everything valve wants.

Please note this beta driver still has not fixed all the broken parts of the Nvidia closed source driver.