KDE On Wayland: "The Biggest Thing Needed Now Is Adoption By 3rd Party Apps"

[Nick82285]

Not even Minecraft runs on native Wayland yet. It requires custom patches for GLFW that ignore the set window icon function not being implemented for Wayland.

[mrg666]

Because they can't?

Scripts are apps, so show me a macro script that can automate that for you as a power user. Like xdotool can on X11 or AutoHotkey can on Windows (name is misleading, it's far more than just hotkeys).

Just because YOU don't automate your workflow and like to repeat your shit instead of working smart, doesn't mean other power users don't.

I am so sick of people who just browse the web and play games and call that a "desktop PC" and "works just fine for me!!!".

So how tf can they "do just fine" when they legit cannot do this for a power user? LMAO.

Keep burying your head in the sand, and being an ignorant, because you know if you refuse to believe such things exist, then sure Wayland is perfect. Pure ignorance.

Is there something stopping you from using X11? I can help if you need help with installation or usage.

[ezst036]

You tried to be funny ezst036 but the sad reality is that Wayland requires a metric ton more work and resources to work properly than Xorg/X11 ever did.

Are you ready to sponsor all the minor projects which have been struggling to support Wayland (XFCE) or outright refused to support it (IceWM, JWM, etc) because they don't have the manpower to do so?

Nothing I said about Wayland was meant to be funny.

As for me personally supporting XFCE (etc), the reality is that with the switch to Wayland some desktops will cease to exist. New desktops will come into being. That is the nature of technology. As things change, some providers can't cope. If they are too wedded to X11, then it isn't worth untangling.

It is neither good nor bad, it simply is.

The irony is that with everybody abandoning X11, it isn't on me to support these desktops. The ecosystem is moving to Wayland naturally, I'm fine with that. You should be hiring developers to upkeep your beloved X.org since nobody else is interested in doing so. Perhaps you should do it yourself. Stop spamming the forums and fire up Emacs and get to work.

[avis]

Nothing I said about Wayland was meant to be funny.

As for me personally supporting XFCE (etc), the reality is that with the switch to Wayland some desktops will cease to exist. New desktops will come into being. That is the nature of technology. As things change, some providers can't cope. If they are too wedded to X11, then it isn't worth untangling.

It is neither good nor bad, it simply is.

The irony is that with everybody abandoning X11, it isn't on me to support these desktops. The ecosystem is moving to Wayland naturally, I'm fine with that. You should be hiring developers to upkeep your beloved X.org since nobody else is interested in doing so. Perhaps you should do it yourself. Stop spamming the forums and fire up Emacs and get to work.

No, that's not the nature of decently designed technology. Vista came up with a completely new graphics stack, yet low-level applications from the Windows 95 era continue to work with in it. Of course, you can say "Microsoft has all the money and engineers to make it happen" but Wayland can perfectly make it happen too, they just chose not to. This is my main beef with Wayland.

[reba]

No, that's not the nature of decently designed technology. Vista came up with a completely new graphics stack, yet low-level applications from the Windows 95 era continue to work with in it. Of course, you can say "Microsoft has all the money and engineers to make it happen" but Wayland can perfectly make it happen too, they just chose not to. This is my main beef with Wayland.

IMHO, the backward compatibility layer of Wayland for old software you seek is called xwayland.
Exactly like DOSBox is that layer on modern systems with different architecture and design goals for programs from times where software design was different and was not possile to port over/nobody cared/better alternatives arose.

Please don't forget the X protocol had several implementations - but only one survived. So saying X is so consistent is stupid because there is just one X implementation left: Xorg

Many Wayland compositors use wlroots, then there is kwin and mutter(?), then Weston and some individual solutions.
Consolidation has not yet happenend in the same amount it has happened with X. We will see if it is necessary or not. If it will happen, then this IMHO is a bad sign as it means the interoperability wasn't there and therefore the protocol badly designed. Exactly what happened with X.

[kiffmet]

which leads to fragmentation, and fragmentation leads to wayland "not being ready"

You conveniently ignored my paragraph about wlroots in your response. It has already done a lot against fragmentation and will do even more in the future, as it's even considered as a future path for KWin to migrate to, aswell as a base for most of the DEs that still need to be ported to Wayland.

And then there's also dozens of (tiling-)WMs built on top of wlroots - all compatible with one another in the sense that they support most wl-protocols and interact with portals in the same way. In that sense, there's more code-sharing/less fragmentation than ever!

[avis]

You conveniently ignored my paragraph about wlroots in your response. It has already done a lot against fragmentation and will do even more in the future, as it's even considered as a future path for KWin to migrate to, aswell as a base for most of the DEs that still need to be ported to Wayland.

And then there's also dozens of (tiling-)WMs built on top of wlroots - all compatible with one another in the sense that they support most wl-protocols and interact with portals in the same way. In that sense, there's more code-sharing/less fragmentation than ever!

Even with wlroots there's no standard(ized) way to configure:

• output devices (monitors)
• input devices (mouse, keyboard, touchpad, etc.)
• there's no guarantee your wlroot based WM will start $HOME/.config/autostart/*.desktop stuff

which just sucks.

[dpeterc]

The teenage self-harm syndrome of desktop Linux is just amazing.
This will put us back into another decade of beta quality desktop experience.
Instead of working on compatibility and enabling the functioning of the few good pieces of software which work on Linux, these guys ask others to rewrite everything.
Anyone who thinks that making Wayland version of Qt software is just a recompile, has done 0 Qt development. Qt breaks compatibility with itself on every major release. You can choose the Qt bugs on Windows, Mac, Linux, and now we will have to support X11 version and Wayland version, which will not run anywhere else.
Thanks, but I will pass.

[ezst036]

No, that's not the nature of decently designed technology. Vista came up with a completely new graphics stack, yet low-level applications from the Windows 95 era continue to work with in it. Of course, you can say "Microsoft has all the money and engineers to make it happen" but Wayland can perfectly make it happen too, they just chose not to. This is my main beef with Wayland.

That does not appear to be what is actually said in the link you provided by the developers replying to you.

Not that it matters. At the end of the day, let's focus on what everybody has in common.

X11 developers don't want to develop for x11. Avis don't want to develop for x11 either. See, look at that. Unity!

[kiffmet]

Even with wlroots there's no standard(ized) way to configure:

• output devices (monitors)
• input devices (mouse, keyboard, touchpad, etc.)
• there's no guarantee your wlroot based WM will start $HOME/.config/autostart/*.desktop stuff

which just sucks.

• Wlroots does provide unified outputs handling.
• Input devices are ALWAYS handled via libinput on Wayland and just like with outputs, wlroots does provide data structures for that.
• How is it a wlroots problem that some decide to ignore an XDG specification from 2006? Workaround: Use systemd user services to run a script which runs autorun .desktop files

Btw, it makes sense that wlroots doesn't ship with a GUI for input and output configuration. It's against the scope and purpose of the project to pull in a specific UI-toolkit as dependency.