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KDE On Wayland: "The Biggest Thing Needed Now Is Adoption By 3rd Party Apps"

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  • #61
    Originally posted by ezst036 View Post
    Wayland has been mature for a very long time now
    That's actually a problem, since apps still can't query absolute window positions.

    If lacking such an essential feature is "mature" then it's a complete lost cause and dead by design.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Quackdoc View Post

      im saying WAYLAND protocol spec is the issue because WAYLAND protocol spec doesn't cover many of the use cases people need. WAYLAND is not ready, it is NOT the fault of compositors
      Because it's argued a lot of these use cases isn't the responsibility of a display server API and is too high level for it. Hence, a lot of this stuff (e.g. screen sharing), is instead going into freedesktop DBUS APIs, where things such as portals can come into play.

      So you have two massive shifts on the Linux desktop, and the Linux desktop doesn't have one large power like Microsoft or Apple who can heavily push app developers and device drivers to update.

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      • #63
        You tried to be funny ezst036 but the sad reality is that Wayland requires a metric ton more work and resources to work properly than Xorg/X11 ever did.

        Are you ready to sponsor all the minor projects which have been struggling to support Wayland (XFCE) or outright refused to support it (IceWM, JWM, etc) because they don't have the manpower to do so?

        No? Then your humor is 100% inappropriate.

        Wayland is not "bad", it's horrendously complex to implement and support properly as seen by KDE which still doesn't work under it properly.

        This complexity is neither warranted, nor required by any other sane OS. Unfortunately, as indicated by this very KDE related post, it's a conscious decision by Wayland developers who just like the status quo.

        A dedicated shared Wayland server with a common rendering API would have solved this. Wayland offers neither.

        Not only all the DEs and WMs have to reimplement the Wayland server, they have to reimplement ... rendering.

        This is insane.
        Last edited by avis; 18 September 2023, 02:06 PM.

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        • #64
          I'm using Wayland for about 2 years now, and I agree with Nate that the biggest "problem with Wayland" is the lack of 3rd party support and default to it.

          There's a lot of misconception about people using xWayland and thinking that are using native Wayland, due to how many of the popular programs out there requires some kind of manual intervention from the user in order to actually run native, which causes people to confuse xwayland problems (x11) with native, and complain about it.

          Hell, there are still a lot of people who believe that today's Wayland can't do simple things like screen recording.

          I would put Wayland in the same boat as Vulkan as proven better option (to not confuse with perfect) than their legacy alternatives, but due to lack of developers properly implementing (difficulty, lack of people or other reasons) gives the false feeling of "not ready to general use".

          Once all the Wayland patches are merged with Wine, and the probably most engaging people of the Linux communities (a.k.a. "Linux Gamers") start to test it and use through Proton, I hope this scenario improves and people start to discuss the technical aspects of Wayland, rather than "Is it ready to replace x11".

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          • #65
            Also I'm not sure if it's allowed here, but I would like to invite people here to learn about Rustdesk, which is a foss software to remote control, and are currently working in improve it's Wayland support (although being a very small team), which is great since Teamviewer is now forcing user registration to use and Anydesk chose Linux Mint way route of washing their hands about supporting Wayland.

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            • #66
              It looks like a good number of distributions well into the future may have to allow both xorg and wayland session options. That's kind of like a "Yeah well duh!" Yet I don't see an end to this anywhere in sight, especially considering all the porting that needs to be done. I dislike being Mr. State The Obvious but this is how it's going to be for a very long time. I don't need too speculate it's outrageously the case for the overall aggregate of GNU Linux desktop users.

              One size overwhelmingly does not fit all.

              Just get an AMD GPU and use GNOME. Looks very isolating, excluding, and alienating. Apples model.

              An unintentional spanner in the works.
              Last edited by creative; 18 September 2023, 03:00 PM.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Volta View Post

                Yeah, right. There are no Unix-like systems outside Linux (if we're not talking about 0,000001% market share), so you can say goodbye to flawed by design X11. The first thing I would get rid from my server is full of holes insecure crap called X11.
                You probably don't need either for a server.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Volta View Post

                  An only crap here is Xorg and your comment. Nobody will redesign it, so keep dreaming. What needs to be redesigned are apps basing on broken by design, legacy xorg crap.
                  Until productivity software and GUI dependant automation software works with Wayland, it is impossible to migrate, no matter what.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by V1tol View Post
                    I dunno why people argue so much about Wayland today and continue reflecting about the past.‚Äč Today Wayland is usable for anything that average user might need. For example, I drive KDE Wayland session (and I heard that Gnome is even better) for more than a year and doing different stuff like gaming, watching movies, making calls with screen sharing and using X apps (mostly Electron apps which are broken even in X11 session) - and adding to the top no screen tearing at all by default makes Wayland for average user almost ideal. And that drama about "wayland makes me write more code when earlier everything was done by X11" reminds me the war around OpenGL vs Vulkan. I hope nobody argues today that Vulkan is the future, right?


                    –°areful here, because someone might google "certified Unix systems" and see macOS in the list
                    My macros don't work on Wayland.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Britoid View Post

                      Because it's argued a lot of these use cases isn't the responsibility of a display server API and is too high level for it. Hence, a lot of this stuff (e.g. screen sharing), is instead going into freedesktop DBUS APIs, where things such as portals can come into play.

                      So you have two massive shifts on the Linux desktop, and the Linux desktop doesn't have one large power like Microsoft or Apple who can heavily push app developers and device drivers to update.
                      even counting the other protocols, the ecosystem itself is still lacking, things like activitywatch still don't work, OSKs are DE dependant etc

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