KDE On Wayland: "The Biggest Thing Needed Now Is Adoption By 3rd Party Apps"

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  • kiffmet
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2016
    • 477

    #41
    Originally posted by szymon_g View Post
    how come apps using Qt (or gtk) should be ported to wayland if those libraries (qt and gtk) are already ported? wouldn't a recompilation do it? or is it normal for apps (like calendar or email client) to go low level and rely on x11?
    Developers can bypass the toolkit an interact with the underlying components directly, if they so wish. Usually, that's a bad idea if not done for a serious reason, as it greatly harms software portability.

    Unfortunately, there are many programs that still interact directly with libX11 or libX* and this technical debt now becomes relevant. You gotta be aware that in many older/established projects, these practices were often used to gain/implement some functionality that the toolkit of choice couldn't do at the time - a situation that has also changed significantly by now.

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    • kiffmet
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2016
      • 477

      #42
      Originally posted by boxie View Post

      I would argue that it is not Dead, but not alive either, some sort of wishful thinking zombie state
      It's receiving palliative care.

      Comment

      • schmidtbag
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 6618

        #43
        Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
        So many things scale perfectly into 8K that its in the media companies' best interests to push 8K. It sucks that TVs are still $1000+, but that means they'll be affordable in 2-3 years time. That scaling also means they can make smaller and smaller display modules to decrease costs.

        1080p doesn't scale into 5K. A lot of common media resolutions don't. 5K would exacerbate the scaling and blur problems.
        Ah I didn't know you meant media scaling, I thought you meant desktop scaling. So, what you say makes a lot more sense.
        Though, unless you're sitting too close to the display, I personally find it hard to notice imperfectly scaled prerecorded media at 4K. The only common resolution I'm aware of that has imperfect scaling in 4K is 16:9 1440p. It's pretty rare to encounter something rendered in 1440p but not also in 4K. If for some reason there is no 4K rendering and you find the scaling to be distracting, is it really that bad to go to 1080p? I just think the extra cost and energy it takes to go to 8K just isn't worth it for what... 5% of the videos you watch today? I'm sure it's less, and that number is bound to decrease as time goes on.
        Having said that, I agree an 8K display is likely to be affordable within 3 years (I'm sure an 8K LCD panel is dirt cheap to make; it's the controller that adds to the cost) but if you plan to do anything other than watch videos, you're going to need to pay more for a better GPU too. Even if you have no intention to play games and just want a HTPC, I don't think we're going to see much worthwhile 8K content for another decade. Whatever we get is basically just going to be demo reels, vlogs, or horribly compressed.

        Meanwhile, by the time 2026 arrives, we might start seeing 5K or even 6K content, neither of which will scale evenly in 8K.

        So - in 2026, do you really think it's worth investing in an 8K platform for the <1% time you will be watching a video with a max resolution of 1440p and has notable shimmering issues in 4K? Personally, I think compression issues are more distracting. I would rather watch a minimally compressed 1080p video over a highly compressed 4K video.


        If that's what you really want, all power to you. But if you're on a budget, I think going for 8K within the next decade is a mistake.
        Last edited by schmidtbag; 18 September 2023, 11:04 AM.

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        • schmidtbag
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2010
          • 6618

          #44
          Originally posted by avis
          Thank you. Clinical depression, chronic fatigue and major health issues don't allow me to think clearly more often than not.
          Go outside more. Eat better. Try spending less energy hating on something that doesn't have much consequence on your life.

          Comment

          • Errinwright
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2023
            • 192

            #45
            Originally posted by avis

            Thank you. Clinical depression, chronic fatigue and major health issues don't allow me to think clearly more often than not.
            25% more or 1/4th as many (25 times, 25x or 2500% doesn't make sense if the presumption is 75%)

            Comment

            • slagiewka
              Phoronix Member
              • Jan 2022
              • 110

              #46
              Originally posted by avis

              Thank you. Clinical depression, chronic fatigue and major health issues don't allow me to think clearly more often than not.
              Bruv, I feel sorry for you. But to be honest, I don't think that spending time arguing on linux forums is going to make things better for you.

              Comment

              • Danny3
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2012
                • 2418

                #47
                We definitely need more programs to be Wayland compatible!
                Wayland in both KDE Plasma and Gnome works very well already and many people have been using Wayland for years.
                Now with 10-bit, HDR capable TVs and monitors and DEs starting to have HDR support, is even more needed!

                Comment

                • skeevy420
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2017
                  • 8693

                  #48
                  Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
                  Ah I didn't know you meant media scaling, I thought you meant desktop scaling. So, what you say makes a lot more sense.
                  Though, unless you're sitting too close to the display, I personally find it hard to notice imperfectly scaled prerecorded media at 4K. The only common resolution I'm aware of that has imperfect scaling in 4K is 16:9 1440p. It's pretty rare to encounter something rendered in 1440p but not also in 4K. If for some reason there is no 4K rendering and you find the scaling to be distracting, is it really that bad to go to 1080p? I just think the extra cost and energy it takes to go to 8K just isn't worth it for what... 5% of the videos you watch today? I'm sure it's less, and that number is bound to decrease as time goes on.
                  Having said that, I agree an 8K display is likely to be affordable within 3 years (I'm sure an 8K LCD panel is dirt cheap to make; it's the controller that adds to the cost) but if you plan to do anything other than watch videos, you're going to need to pay more for a better GPU too. Even if you have no intention to play games and just want a HTPC, I don't think we're going to see much worthwhile 8K content for another decade. Whatever we get is basically just going to be demo reels, vlogs, or horribly compressed.

                  Meanwhile, by the time 2026 arrives, we might start seeing 5K or even 6K content, neither of which will scale evenly in 8K.

                  So - in 2026, do you really think it's worth investing in an 8K platform for the <1% time you will be watching a video with a max resolution of 1440p and has notable shimmering issues in 4K? Personally, I think compression issues are more distracting. I would rather watch a minimally compressed 1080p video over a highly compressed 4K video.


                  If that's what you really want, all power to you. But if you're on a budget, I think going for 8K within the next decade is a mistake.
                  Well, it's a bit of both. While media scaling is where its at, it helps with desktop scaling, too.

                  Take 5K displays. The benefit of that is having 4K of a working window with screen real estate left over for tools and controls. That's why the latest Macs use 5K displays -- to create 4K content. They get 1:1 integer scaling for working with media and everything else, AKA the desktop, can render as native 5K...which just happens to be double 1440p and is what the old Macs used to run. 5K allows them to integer scale from their old to new while also allowing 4K native rendering and perfect 1080p integer scaling. 5K is a great working resolution, not necessarily a great consumer resolution.

                  8K would allow Apple to integer scale their UI since it's just going from 2x to 3x so 8K can also be used as a working resolution.

                  As far as native 1440p....oddly enough, the Xbox. Viewsonic is even making an official Xbox 1440p projector for "only" $1500-ish.

                  But as far as new GPUs go, that's the glory of perfect integer scaling -- we won't need new GPUs. We'll just need to target the best rendering resolution the GPU is able to do. For example, my 6700XT is great at up to 1440p 90 FPS so all I'd have to do is set my rendering to 1440p and let that scale perfectly 3x into 8K. 6600 XTs just have to target 1080p and scale up 4x. No need for a beefy GPUs and it fixes all the scaling blur issues...assuming your GPU is 8K capable to begin with or the display allows using scaled resolutions as native.

                  FWIW, I never thought I'd take this side until I realized how much it'd fix or make easier.

                  Comment

                  • shmerl
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2009
                    • 3514

                    #49
                    For me the biggest missing piece is Wine, but Wayland support for it in moving nicely.

                    Comment

                    • guglovich
                      Senior Member
                      • Jul 2017
                      • 292

                      #50
                      "Wayland adoption has taken much longer than anyone has anticipated"

                      We should have a meme on this topic already. It's like they're all saying the same thing by the book. Especially about the dead X11 all representatives are already writing. But customers so rarely write word for word.

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