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KDE On Wayland: "The Biggest Thing Needed Now Is Adoption By 3rd Party Apps"

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  • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    MY tests determine whether I will adopt something, they are generally not public, the next step is to look how wide the problem is, a cursory glance on the web shows it isn't isolated:
    ​So your data has not been peer reviewed to make sure you have not go something critically wrong. What you quoted says you went looking for confirmation bias because you did not want to be proven wrong by what you are quoting as well.

    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    You have that the wrong way round, bug reports come AFTER something is superior to what it theoretically replaces.
    I don't want a true answer is what you wrote here.


    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    ​xorg-server everywhere on linux. quartz on windows and mac.
    Come on get it right. xquartz is only on macos does not exist on Windows. WSL2 you use weston on Windows by the way.

    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    ​​If a compositor causes problems, just turn it off.
    Wayland use a wayland compositor without the overhead is option.

    SDL developer wants to be able to turn Wayland compostior and X11 bare metal server off because both cause a performance overhead he does not want his game customers putting up with.

    Yes SDL project comes out of a company that no longer exists Loki Entertainment 1998-2002. Remember I said you had to look pre 2000 to find a game that was direct. Yes 1999 they release a game with direct output and direct input no X11 in the mix because this is lower latency.

    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    ​​There is, it uses cpu cycles instead of interrupts, and adds significant logic to IO in the name of "security" (something that has no business being part of a display server).
    So you have flame graphs of X11 bare metal and Wayland compositors showing this difference right??? Of course not because they don't show this. Xinput stack in X11 also is a CPU cycle hog.

    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    Two or three years ago. All nividias known bugs are well and truly fixed
    So you are saying two to three years ago I could use KMS output with SDL application and it worked with Nvidia?? about time you stop talking garbage on this point. Sorry I want true low latency applications.

    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    The only issue I have with wayland is it offers nothing and "breaks everything", e.g.
    LOL quote a fool who has not updated site.
    Phoronix, Linux Hardware Reviews, Linux hardware benchmarks, Linux server benchmarks, Linux benchmarking, Desktop Linux, Linux performance, Open Source graphics, Linux How To, Ubuntu benchmarks, Ubuntu hardware, Phoronix Test Suite

    Yes all those old X11 screen sharing applications and screen recording bugs listed on those site are not bugs as long as you use XwaylandVideoBridge to let them work. Yes stack of fixed since march this year. The XwaylandVideoBridge is not limited to only KDE users works under gnome and wlroots and weston wayland compositors as well.

    And that site is a stack of myths and out of date information
    "A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications"
    Does not apply to Wayland applications that have the robust code and running in robust setup. Wayland robust extensions is part of the main Wayland protocol by the way.

    "You cannot run applications as root"
    On the X desktop, I ocassionally used gksudo or just sudo somegui to launch GUI applications as another user, including root. I recently discovered that this is not possible on contemporary (early ...

    Code:
    sudo env XDG_RUNTIME_DIR=$XDG_RUNTIME_DIR WAYLAND_SOCKET=$WAYLAND_SOCKET waylandapplication​
    Or what you find in the Redhat bug reports.
    Code:
    sudo --preserve-env=XDG_RUNTIME_DIR,WAYLAND_DISPLAY weston-terminal
    Yes the only reason why you cannot run graphical wayland applications as root with wayland simply is sudo/pkexec does not auto transfer the two environmental variables required so Wayland applications work by default. If you do the commands to transfer the required environmental vars it works perfectly. Distributions have in fact decide to make it harder to run graphical applications as root. Nothing about Wayland design here. There was a time when sudo with Linux distributions would not work for graphical X11 applications either. This is just distributions being their normal pain in but. Nothing about the wayland protocol in fact forbids running Wayland compositor as one user and application as another. Of course the applications have to be sharing Wayland socket and XDG_RUNTIME_DIR.

    I ran xkill to force quit Chrome, and I clicked my desktop. The icons disappeared. Is there a command that will get them back? I'd rather not restart. I'm using GNOME and GDM.

    Some like xkill we really don't want to work any more because users so often have shot themselves in the foot with xkill. Turns out xkill also has habit of killing wrong processes as well. So somethings you want to make no work any more.

    mSparks Wayland breaks everything link turns out to contain a stack of garbage these days.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
      ​So your data has not been peer reviewed to make sure you have not go something critically wrong. What you quoted says you went looking for confirmation bias because you did not want to be proven wrong by what you are quoting as well.
      .
      Oh, its getting peer reviewed on a huge scale in less than 12 months.
      if I'm right, wayland will be abandoned, everyone who worked on it will have to come to terms with how much of their life they wasted, most everyone that currently works for redhat will lose their jobs, and we'll be lucky if Fedora survives the fallout.

      If Im wrong... well... Its often nice be wrong. nothing more consequential than that.

      As for conformation bias. Nope, I have also looked for people singing its praises and all the ways its better than X11, Like you I didnt find anything. The best anyone could come up with is here on phoronix where its "finally almost as good as X11 in some fringe use cases".
      Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
      So you have flame graphs of X11 bare metal and Wayland compositors showing this difference right???
      You are welcome to share yours.
      Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
      I don't want a true answer is what you wrote here.
      In my markets bug reports generally present themselves as people having fatal accidents. Test your own shit ffs.
      Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
      Come on get it right. xquartz
      I dont personally use windows at all any more, but I know a lot of people do and just assumed it would be available for windows to. Most everyone I know moved to mac M1s and M2s.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
        As for conformation bias. Nope, I have also looked for people singing its praises and all the ways its better than X11,
        This is still conformation bias.

        People complaining about issues make more noise. You assumed people would be singing praises. Notice people like me only really don't want you saying incorrect errors.

        I started working on Flyaway with the intention of becoming familiar with Wayland, its protocols and extensions, and the wlroots library. Instead, I ended up genuinely liking all three.

        The problem here is that X11 definitely was not built for those things. Variable refresh rate works, but only if you’re using a single monitor, and mixed refresh rate monitors in a single X session don’t work at all outside of the hardware cursor. Fractional scaling is a hack. Compositing in general is optional and is sort of just stapled onto the existing architecture. X11 does do what it needs to do, which is display windows, but it’s kinda garbo when you need it to do anything more advanced.
        You really did not go looking far did you. Wayland solutions handle everything here quite well over all.

        Originally posted by mSparks View Post
        I dont personally use windows at all any more, but I know a lot of people do and just assumed it would be available for windows to. Most everyone I know moved to mac M1s and M2s.
        xquartz has never been on windows. Before wsl on windows been xming and other X11 servers on windows all different versions of opps sorry we expected posix style system WIndows is not I am crashing now thank for playing. Microsoft with WSL2 has gone weston with xwayland the most stable X11 solution on Windows..
        https://github.com/microsoft/wslg yes running inside Linux inside windows.

        MacOS being posix like has made using having x.org X11 server ported in the form of xquartz somewhat near use-able.
        I recently updated to Ventura 13.5 and now found Xquartz unfortunately does not work properly, it crashes immediatetely. I tried reinstalling Xquartz, reboot , all to no avail. The console shows th...


        Saying you use M1s and M2s you must not be using X11 that much. Xquartz is having more and more issues with updates of Mac OS.

        Got an Apple Silicon Mac? Want to run Linux? Then you'll need a Wayland-based desktop

        Also if you ever want to run Linux on that M1/M2 there is no bare metal X11 server port those running Linux is Wayland or nothing. Its not just fedora making these hard choices. Yes details nice X11 server baremetal weakness again.

        Think about it going forwards you windows users X11 server will be Xwayland. Linux distributions are moving that X11 server is Xwayland. The odd one out if something does not change will be Mac OS users on XQuartz.

        Yes do take a closer look at that WSL2. They are using the RDP backend of weston so its getting well tested. RDP of course is remote desktop protocol.

        Working multi monitor support is not exactly fringe any more.


        Comment


        • Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
          This is still conformation bias.

          People complaining about issues make more noise. You assumed people would be singing praises. Notice people like me only really don't want you saying incorrect errors.

          Nope.
          confirmation bias is when you assume something to be true and only pay attention to facts that confirm that assumption.

          You haven't presented a single argument to indicate wayland is worth investing time in, and made multiple assumptions about X11 I know are not true:
          Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
          Working multi monitor support is not exactly fringe any more.
          e.g. I have no problems with 3 monitor support + a VR headset on X11, I have never gotten VR working on wayland, neither have you by the sounds of it.
          Your retort seems to be anyone in that or a similar situation should just abandon Fedora and KDE. I think they will, and I also think when they do there will be not enough people left using Fedora to justify any adoption of wayland, not just by third parties.
          Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
          Saying you use M1s and M2s you must not be using X11 that much.
          No change there over when they were using windows, but since MacOS is POSIX its allowed us to depreciate a lot of none POSIX code. A lot of our 3rd parties have been adopting CEF for new projects, while I'm personally not a fan of that I understand why - not least because it's what wayland should have been.
          Last edited by mSparks; 16 October 2023, 01:26 PM.

          Comment



          • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
            e.g. I have no problems with 3 monitor support + a VR headset on X11, I have never gotten VR working on wayland, neither have you by the sounds of it.
            O the works for me argument. So those 3 monitors are variable refresh rate and you are taking advantage of that right??
            mixed refresh rate monitors in a single X session don’t work at all outside of the hardware cursor.
            I have got VR working on Wayland mind you it helps my setup is all AMD and I use KDE.

            I have many cases where I have mixed monitor setups. KDE Wayland really does better. 144 hz monitor with a 30hz monitor thing about X11 start coming out quickly. The fun of using a TV projector for output.

            Yes you load a X11 compositor and lots of things go wrong. You start finding that X11 protocol is not designed for mixed hz. You start finding application over rendering so over using the CPU/GPU when on the 30hz screen because they have not picked up that they are not on the primary 144hz screen. but are on the 30hz screen.

            There is a stack of problems with X11 protocol and multi monitor setups mSparks that you just don't hit using Wayland solutions. We to the point where people expect to throw what ever mix of monitors at a system and play with nothing and have it work correctly you are not getting that out of X11. Yes x11 bare metal without compositor kind can be made work but load a X11 compositor that part of the X11 protocol does not support this setup correctly at all. Those wanting the features of compositor are better off with Wayland than X11 with better multi monitor handling and better performance than X11 with X11 compositor.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
              O the works for me argument.
              Not really.
              Its "doesn't work for me, or pretty much anyone who writes about it on the internet" is what we were discussing.
              If X11 and Wayland didn't work I couldn't use Linux.
              if X11 isn't provided by a distribution I can't use that distribution.
              Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
              I have got VR working on Wayland
              Nice, lets see a video of that then.
              Here's one of mine:

              Comment


              • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                If X11 and Wayland didn't work I couldn't use Linux.
                if X11 isn't provided by a distribution I can't use that distribution.
                There is a problem. Notice the recent Studio One​ port by prosonus is wayland only. Then you take a closer look at the binary. The program has not been made with bare-metal Linux installs it been made in WSL2 there are makers in the binary.

                Lot of users are going to find themselves in the location that if they don't have working Wayland support application they need will not work.

                Nvidia drivers being broken with X11 nesting and Wayland is coming a major problem. We are going to see more wayland only applications for linux for one simple reason Windows developers porting programs. Yes this is going to be weston tested not KDE/Gnome tested because that what WSL2 uses. Of course you have valve wishing for wayland support as well.

                You know how people have been trying to say weston not important....

                The biggest pressure to have Wayland support is not Redhat/IBM instead it Microsoft WSL2.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

                  There is a problem. Notice the recent Studio One​ port by prosonus is wayland only. Then you take a closer look at the binary. The program has not been made with bare-metal Linux installs it been made in WSL2 there are makers in the binary.

                  Lot of users are going to find themselves in the location that if they don't have working Wayland support application they need will not work.

                  Nvidia drivers being broken with X11 nesting and Wayland is coming a major problem. We are going to see more wayland only applications for linux for one simple reason Windows developers porting programs. Yes this is going to be weston tested not KDE/Gnome tested because that what WSL2 uses. Of course you have valve wishing for wayland support as well.

                  You know how people have been trying to say weston not important....

                  The biggest pressure to have Wayland support is not Redhat/IBM instead it Microsoft WSL2.
                  This studio one?
                  PreSonus has made Studio One, their powerful digital audio workstation, available on Linux for the very first time! Studio One is a (closed-source)


                  ouch. Their only criticism is being wayland only and no redhat support since it needs jack. That has to hurt.
                  Anyway, Im not sure what you think that has to do with sharing a recording of you doing VR on wayland.
                  preferably on gnome. Since that is the default of popular OSes like ubuntu.

                  If you cant you should probably concede wayland doesnt work for you and switch back to X11 like everyone else.
                  Last edited by mSparks; 16 October 2023, 11:09 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                    ouch. Their only criticism is being wayland only and no redhat support since it needs jack. That has to hurt.
                    "fully functional JACK audio server" on the Studio One requirement list is in fact by the developer answer in the forums pipewire jack as that was all its been tested with and that is their define of a "fully functional jack audio server" in testing because that was the one in WSL2 default Ubuntu setup.

                    Ubuntu only what is the default Linux distribution of WSL2 that Ubuntu.
                    https://forums.presonus.com/viewtopi...1c7517e2352a4f 9d78bd8221b654
                    Gets even better install instructions for distributions that re not Ubuntu. That right use distrobox and install Ubuntu on top of your current distribution.

                    Welcome to docker containers making it to desktop applications and the fun that brings.

                    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                    Anyway, Im not sure what you think that has to do with sharing a recording of you doing VR on wayland.
                    preferably on gnome. Since that is the default of popular OSes like ubuntu.
                    Someone wants there ass kicked.

                    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                    ​If you cant you should probably concede wayland doesnt work for you and switch back to X11 like everyone else.
                    I did not switch back remember I am KDE user and have been for a very long time.
                    Phoronix, Linux Hardware Reviews, Linux hardware benchmarks, Linux server benchmarks, Linux benchmarking, Desktop Linux, Linux performance, Open Source graphics, Linux How To, Ubuntu benchmarks, Ubuntu hardware, Phoronix Test Suite

                    Someone knew about Nvidia driver update coming being me. Now please update you Nvidia drivers and try VR with every wayland compositor bar gnome. Then admit the reason why VR was not working under KDE/sway/weston/gamescope...every bar gnome with Wayland was in fact Nvidia broken drivers.

                    Yes this driver finally adds support for Linux kernel framebuffer the Linux kernel original native graphical so when you switch between X11 and the text terminal the system does not random-ally die.

                    Now lets think again on Studio One you Nvidia users are in trouble. Distrobox solution presonus what the problem. Simple what happens when your host distribution has different Nvidia driver versions than the distribution inside the distrobox. Please note mesa3d drivers cope with being out of alignment between kernel version and mesa3d version so this issue does not effect AMD and Intel drivers under Linux. Heck even amd closed source user space runtime is coded to cope with this problem. AMD and Intel have design their drivers that you can in fact use multi versions side by side with each other.

                    Don't say the fix is install different version in the distrobox or the host. Software vendor does not have to support installs using Nvidia drivers that don't come from the distribution repo. Yes few different applications using different distributions all demanding distrobox installs exactly as upstream distribution for support welcome to future checkmate for your Nvidia users and it coming.

                    You are needing proxy/nesting with this change in software distribution as well. Think about it if you can run the distributions xnest or xepher and get it work that allows the distributions differences in the X11 protocol to work.

                    X11 protocol added nesting support very early. Parties like Nvidia and ATI with their drivers use to not support X11 nesting. Now we have graphical programs being provided to users with instructions to use docker containers. Nesting under X11 or proxy under Wayland(same thing different name basically) comes important.

                    Also gets worse. Notice that this is the beta driver for using open source kernel code for everything Nvidia. Why is this going to happen. Microsoft requirement on distributions to have signed boot loaded that drivers have to signed by the distribution. Linux distributions are don't want to sign something that they cannot correctly inspect. Thinking that issue could result in revoked secureboot key.

                    Also read the Microsoft paper work the user space drivers of X11 x.org server count. So yes that nvidia bit you load into the x.org bare metal server has a problem.

                    OpenELA is not going to change the problems Microsoft has caused with secureboot rules and WSL2.

                    Then of course you have everything valve wants.

                    Please note this beta driver still has not fixed all the broken parts of the Nvidia closed source driver.
                    Last edited by oiaohm; 17 October 2023, 10:44 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

                      I did not switch back remember I am KDE user and have been for a very long time.
                      driver.
                      Oh, I assumed when you were talking up an application that only works on ubuntu gnome in wayland you must have switched since then.

                      But since you are still having so much trouble recording the VR setup you pretended to have working I'm gonna have to assume when you actually tried it in wayland you ran into the input latency problem I was talking about. You should file a bug for that since you care so much.

                      ^thats me actually assuming.

                      Comment

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