KDE On Wayland: "The Biggest Thing Needed Now Is Adoption By 3rd Party Apps"

[oiaohm]

According to the steam numbers no one on linux is using Intel GPUs....
steam is very specific to linux gamers, and linux gamers are not remotely representative of linux users.

https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam?platform=linux

Go down click on the GPU and notice Intel GPU are also present.

Of course they are not representative of general users. But Linux gamers are representative of those that care about latency. Yes general package stats matched to steam numbers.

The thing it shows is the Nvidia market share on Linux is not big in the area you would have historically expected.

Considerably smaller than the list of AMD driver issues - and not remotely related to "minor" wayland bugs like not being able to move a window reliably on AMD or NVidia or Intel without the entire machine crashing.

Yet you have not been quoting those bug so they must not exist any more right or don't exist with KDE where the compositor can restart in case of crash. Remember X11 kde compositor does also have a history of locking up resulting in being unable to move windows so not being able to move windows is not a wayland unique bug.

3rd parties choice is easy. Target X11 and cover the vast majority of linux machines that use X11, and users masochistic enough to stomach wayland can use it through Xwayland, and when they have issues just do what valve did and implicitly tell them to use X11.

That not how it plays out. Majority of third party software on Linux supports wayland not because they did anything to support wayland because the toolkit library they use support wayland and they would have to do something to turn that feature off.

Very few people write applications directly using libx11. Items like blender use a custom toolkit they are last in the line to get wayland support. Its the old problem the first 90% easy and the last 10% being the hardest.

Majority of third party applications on Linux don't use anything that does not work with Wayland..

The reality here is majority of third party applications on Linux don't in fact target Linux instead have their core development on Windows and the like and do a fast port using what ever Qt or SDL supports.

Yes mSparks this is where you need to take the statement by the KDE developer with the grain of salt. Wayland is to the point of needing to work with third parties who have applications in the 10% that don't easy port to work out how to deal with their issues. Again here you have assumed something without looking at the real world numbers.

Yes the anti wayland camp claim that Wayland breaks everything blind themselves from seeing all the cases that going to Wayland broke nothing that is the majority. Fun of the silent majority problem.

[mSparks]

But Linux gamers are representative of those that care about latency. Yes general package stats matched to steam numbers.

How many AI and Big Data analytics companies and startups do you think are using AMD or Intel really?
They are the vast majority of current Fedora KDE users.

The most used Linux distro globally is probably gLinux/Debian.

Yet you have not been quoting those bug so they must not exist any more right

You just did. most of those bugs you just linked are wayland bugs not nvidia bugs. That's why they haven't fixed them.

The reality here is majority of third party applications on Linux don't in fact target Linux instead have their core development on Windows

Even less companies are targetting windows these days than wayland.
When was the last time you saw a software company become a unicorn by building windows software?
AOL is the last one that springs to mind.

[oiaohm]

How many AI and Big Data analytics companies and startups do you think are using AMD or Intel really?
They are the vast majority of current Fedora KDE users.

That would explain why Fedora has up to 30% Nvidia users as a outlier instead of the normal 5-15% of every other Linux Distribution that support installing on general hardware.

mSpark out of AI and Big Data analytics 1 in 5 are not using Nvidia and that numbers been growing. Nvidia market is not as solid there as it first appears.

Something to consider with places like china they are not highly interested in AMD or Intel or Nvidia due to the fun of export restrictions that crop up.

https://www.theregister.com/2023/07/28/us_china_ai_chip/

This is a interesting problem.

Remember Major Linux Distributions make choices based on what they have to support for the next 10 years. Sometimes the correct answer is kick a small percentage of users in teeth to make the long term process simpler.

The most used Linux distro globally is probably gLinux/Debian.

That the thing Debian package stats don't show large number of Nvidia users.

You just did. most of those bugs you just linked are wayland bugs not nvidia bugs. That's why they haven't fixed them.

Quote my links. I did not provide a URL to any.

Even less companies are targetting windows these days than wayland.
When was the last time you saw a software company become a unicorn by building windows software?
AOL is the last one that springs to mind.

Game developers commonly target Windows first. Lot of your commercial CAD software also targets Windows first.

Basically you need to look around in other markets a bit more. https://truelist.co/blog/gaming-statistics/
Game develop is like 63% percent they call that PC but in reality that Windows first. Linux has it own entry at 3 percent with a large percentage being quick ports. This kind of explains why Wine/Proton support is so important for Linux game players.

More companies target Windows than Linux I am sorry to break it to you when you look across the board. Some limited fields more companies target Linux than everything else and those limited fields make up a small section of the Linux distribution user market-share like it or not.

Yes it a surprise android development that people would think is a lot turns out also not to be. Android has about 3 million active developed applications MS windows is 35 million.

Software development on MS Windows is god darn huge. Yes those working on AI and BIg Data are a drop in the bucket compared to Windows software development.

Yes with Windows being mostly locked to desktop machines these days the fact it still the largest place companies invest in software development is very out there.

Getting into the Windows market when you have to compete against 35 million existing applications does not make one life the simplest of course.

Yes again you made a statement not backed by numbers. How is windows less targeted than Wayland when Windows is platform that is most developed for and gets the most new applications every year for the past 20 years everything else like it or not is a drop in the bucket by stats.

The huge market of Windows is a good example that you have to be good for what the users need. The huge AI and Big Data market shares not being relevant to Linux Desktop Distribution choices is exactly the same as Microsoft windows huge market share failing to dominate servers.

Yes the hard reality for AI and BIg Data people is it wake up in the software development world they are small fry and they have to get use to it.

And one of the reasons why Nvidia has put a team into fixing their driver up for Wayland is that they know they are small fry now so they have to make it work. Of course fixing the number of bugs the Nvidia driver is has is most likely going to take 5 years and Linux distributions are not going to wait that long sorry Nvidia users.

[mSparks]

uote my links. I did not provide a URL to any.

You mean you posted this without actually reading it?

https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/05/nvidia-reveal-a-list-of-issues-with-their-driver-and-wayland/

WAYLAND PROTOCOL OR COMPOSITOR LIMITATIONS

• The following workstation features are not supported by any Wayland compositors or the Wayland protocol. They will also likely require new EGL extensions or other means to expose the related hardware functionality.
  • SLI and Multi-GPU Mosaic
  • Frame Lock and Genlock
  • Swap Groups
  • Advanced display pipeline features including warp and blend, pixel shift, and emulated YUV420.
  • Stereo rendering
• There is no established public API through which Wayland compositors can power off video memory via RTD3.
• Xwayland does not provide a suitable mechanism for our driver to synchronize application rendering with presentation, which can cause visual corruption in some circumstances.
• Display multiplexers (muxes) are typically used in laptops with both integrated and discrete GPUs to provide a direct connection between the discrete GPU and the built-in display (internal mux) or an external display (external mux). On X11, the display mux can be automatically switched when a full-screen application is running on the discrete GPU, enabling enhanced display features and improved performance, but no Wayland compositors currently support this functionality.
• Indirect GLX does not work with Xwayland because the Glamor rendering engine is not compatible with our EGL implementation.
• Hardware overlays cannot be used by GLX applications with Xwayland.

More companies target Windows than Linux I am sorry to break it to you when you look across the board.
out of AI and Big Data analytics 1 in 5 are not using Nvidia

You should refresh yourself with something like

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37739028

assuming you are on the Redhat payroll for wayland, you are likely going to need to find a new employer once IBM can that shitshow in the next 12-24 months.

[oiaohm]

You mean you posted this without actually reading it?

1) There is no established public API through which Wayland compositors can power off video memory via RTD3.
This one horrible. Ever wonder why when using Nvidia without X11 server loaded as in single use fail safe mode on Linux why your laptop battery life can be short.. So there is no proper integration with the Linux kernel power management. AMD/Intel hardware not having this problem. So this is not that there is no public API for Wayland compositors to use to control RTD3 power its that Nvidia hooked up to it and if Nvidia was power management would work correctly without Wayland or X11 loaded just like AMD and Intel GPU do. Of course problem here this means Nvidia power code has to at least open source in kernel space because the power management part of the Linux kernel is strictly GPLv2.

2) Xwayland does not provide a suitable mechanism for our driver to synchronize application rendering with presentation, which can cause visual corruption in some circumstances.
Do Note the our driver here again. AMD and Intel by DMABUF this works. Basically every other KMS/GBM/DMABUF driver this works. Yes this problem links to lack of Xnest and Xephr by Nvidia driver.

3) Display multiplexers (muxes) are typically used in laptops with both integrated and discrete GPUs to provide a direct connection between the discrete GPU and the built-in display (internal mux) or an external display (external mux). On X11, the display mux can be automatically switched when a full-screen application is running on the discrete GPU, enabling enhanced display features and improved performance, but no Wayland compositors currently support this functionality.
This is the only issue not nvidia alone. But they also gloss over that with X11 modesetting driver this also does not work right.

https://www.phoronix.com/news/NVIDIA-Dynamic-Mux-Switching

Yes a new API is required to be taken up here. To remove all the custom vendor mux switching work arounds.

https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/dri-devel/2022-November/379107.html

Yes here November 2022 where a Nvidia developers goes and list what they are doing inside X11 to support mux does not in fact work right.

4)Indirect GLX does not work with Xwayland because the Glamor rendering engine is not compatible with our EGL implementation.
This one is why Nvidia 3d acceleration does not work with Xnest and Xephyr under x11 bare metal. Do not this works with AMD and Intel

5) Hardware overlays cannot be used by GLX applications with Xwayland.
Hang on one min. AMD and Intel drivers both have working hardware overlays with Xwayland and this also works with Xnext and Xephr with AMD and Intel.

Funny right the 5 workstation features problems they point to 4 if them are defects in only Nvidia driver. 3 of them effect software that is include as part of core x.org x11 server bits being Xnest and Xephr. 1 because Nvidia driver does not link into kernel power management and 1 something that in reality only works under X11 due to hacks not working correctly so need a new API/ABI for everyone.

I did not provide a link to list of true Wayland only defects. Nvidia loves writing all this stuff that seams to make out that X11 is fine when in reality they know themselves X11 side is also broken. Like that Mux one where they say they need a new API because the current method does not work right and is basically being held up by the software version of duct tape.

mSparks you made a bad presume. I was seeing how dumb you were. A person who knew this topic would have only quoted point 3 because they would know that the other 4 are Nvidia driver defects that only Nvidia closed source driver and recently open source straight from Nvidia driver suffers from.

Fun point DMABUF in the Linux kernel was joint development between Intel and Nvidia.

[mSparks]

4)Indirect GLX does not work with Xwayland because the Glamor rendering engine is not compatible with our EGL implementation.
This one is why Nvidia 3d acceleration does not work with Xnest and Xephyr under x11 bare metal.

you've seen this shit right?

https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/Glamor/

No wonder Xwayland is such a steaming POS. Is all wayland built that badly?

Are there plans to replace the windows XP era discontinued gpu driver wayland seems to rely on, or is IBM expecting to replace X11 with that?

Anyway, it was your link, not my fault it said exactly the opposite of everything you have. perhaps you should find one that actually supports what you said before. I suggest you read it first.

this works with AMD and Intel

Unlike Nvidia, CS2 doesn't

https://github.com/ValveSoftware/csgo-osx-linux/issues/3386

[oiaohm]

you've seen this shit right?
https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/Glamor/

Yes I have so has the Zink developer you know the opengl on Vulkan. Yes Zink hates Glamor with absolute passion after the hell it put him though. But the Zink developer also had admit that Glamor uses opengl exactly to opengl specification. Just to be really horrible Glamor include the opengl specification defined implicit sync.

The horrible reality if your drivers are having problems with Glamor they are not to opengl specification. Yes every time Glamor would not work for the Zink developer he found a different part of the official conformance test suite of opengl was not working and it directly linked to why Glamor was not working.

This does come important for Valve who at times wants to sell users really old games to play that depend on implicit sync opengl working.

It would be fair to call Glamor an opengl torture test that Nvidia fails. Please note for a long time it was every driver in mesa3d bar zink could handle glamor but this year it came every driver in mesa3d can handle glamor.

https://www.phoronix.com/news/Zink-GLAMOR-Renders

Basically why should Nvidia get special treatment everyone else can be opengl conforming to run Glamor why should Nvidia not have to be?

Do remember Intel funded the development of glamor originally. Nvidia has not put their money into their pocket to code a replacement either.

Unlike Nvidia, CS2 doesn't
https://github.com/ValveSoftware/csg...ux/issues/3386

Please note the above AMD one the game crashes and the driver restarts and that it. Yes X11 server or the Wayland compositor and the complete system stays up and running. Lets look at the Nvidia equal.

https://forums.developer.nvidia.com/t/nvidia-drivers-crash-with-xid-69-while-playing-counter-strike-global-offensive/47447

Yep your complete system goes and totally crashes in hardlock because you are using Nvidia forcing you to reset the system by power button.

There is a reason for this. AMD and Intel the buffers are allocated per process. So something goes wrong they can flush a single process worth of buffers instead of complete system as you have happen with Nvidia. The lack of security between processes is what makes Nvidia crashes worse for those playing games.

CSGO is not where you wanted bring in. It done this repeatedly. CSGO is a great program for breaking graphics card drivers so finding out if the fail safe is good or bad.

AMD and Intel do successfully under Linux pull of a driver restart when going up against the master of evil CSGO.. Yes this happens while you are using X11 or Wayland and its only CSGO program going away everything else due to the split by process is able to keep on running as if the driver never restarted with AMD and Intel yes not even Wayland compositors straight up notice what happened.

Yes there have been many times that the AMD and Intel developers working on Mesa3d have seen what CSGO is going and end up going back to the CSGO developers point out that what they were doing is in fact not to specification and its been good luck not good management that the code even worked due to race conditions and other horrible faults in their shader code and so on.

Master of evil title was given to CSGO in the mesa3d mailing list at one point because CSGO was doing so many things that by specification individually should not work but in combination manage to work somehow.

[mSparks]

Please note the above AMD one the game crashes and the driver restarts and that it. Yes X11 server or the Wayland compositor and the complete system stays up and running. Lets look at the Nvidia equal.

https://forums.developer.nvidia.com/t/nvidia-drivers-crash-with-xid-69-while-playing-counter-strike-global-offensive/47447

wow, someone on nvidia crashed once in January 2017. amazing.

plus you got that the wrong way round. its not a nvidia v amd thing, its a wayland v x11 thing:

https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/issues/5634

"This was originally remarked downstream in Fedora here (a preliminary discussion had happened over there, but it unfortunately stalled)"

CSGO is not where you wanted bring in. It done this repeatedly. CSGO is a great program for breaking graphics card drivers so finding out if the fail safe is good or bad.

Not CSGO, CS2. the most popular new linux game by a very wide margin, that is single handedly responsible for the decline in steam stats for linux, you think the last two months were bad, that was just its beta phase, next month has the stats from every single AMD linux gamer unable to play their favourite game on Linux, while us nvidia guys rack up the hours...

[oiaohm]

wow, someone on nvidia crashed once in January 2017. amazing.

Its how it crashes.

plus you got that the wrong way round. its not a nvidia v amd thing, its a wayland v x11 thing:

https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/issues/5634

"This was originally remarked downstream in Fedora here (a preliminary discussion had happened over there, but it unfortunately stalled)"

https://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/bl...nd_robustness/
You need more knowledge before you quote things. Just because a bug is open does not mean it valid.

KDE developer on robustness demos the feature the bug you quoted just talked about with gnome-shell with no gnome-shell modifications. Someways I would love to see a small Wayland proxy compositor to wrap over wayland applications that don't have robustness code this could be generic.

The solution for this? Instead of exiting when the compositor closes, simply...don't!

Yes it not the wayland compositor that need a fix it the toolkits/applications. Its not like the applications have to die just because the compositor goes away.

Not CSGO, CS2. the most popular new linux game by a very wide margin, that is single handedly responsible for the decline in steam stats for linux, you think the last two months were bad, that was just its beta phase, next month has the stats from every single AMD linux gamer unable to play their favourite game on Linux, while us nvidia guys rack up the hours...

Problem is this happened back in 2017 with Nvidia and 2018 and 2019 and 2020 and 2021 and 2022 on different games under linux all with hard hangs requiring person to restart system by power button.

Like it or not graphics driver issues are going to happen this is not a AMD or Nvidia unique problem. But what is unique is the fact Nvidia under Linux hard lockup and everything else does not. This has been going on for some time. You look at Windows gamers and 80 percent of the GPU in usage is Nvidia then you look at Linux and less than 30% is using Nvidia something really bad has been happening to the Linux gamers to stop them using Nvidia hardware.

The something bad that been happening to Linux Gamers using Nvidia hardware over and over again that causes them to walk way from Nvidia this is hard lockups.

Think about it you are playing with your mates you crash out the game under AMD you have a chance to restart game and get back in if the crash is not a constant but under Nvidia your voice chat and everything else with you friends has gone bell up because the system hard locked up. Cause of this is the lack of process separation yes a feature Nvidia pushed for with eglstreams and its a core part of their linux closed source driver.

Nvidia needs to fix their driver like it or not. Nvidia defective linux driver is costing them market share. In fact these hard lockup cost Nvidia enough market share they can no longer demand Linux distributions bend their knee to them.

The bug you pulled out on AMD compared to the bug I pulled out shows why Nvidia on Linux in the gaming area is losing market to AMD. Nvidia has the raw performance numbers over AMD but hard lockups make uses walk way from Nvidia hardware.

Remember how I said the RX480 is when AMD got competitive against Nvidia on Linux for gaming. Guess when AMD driver stopped having hard lockups under Linux. AMD on Linux to win market share has not had to win the performance war because Nvidia poor quality driver has just handed them market.

If Nvidia linux driver was a car like it or not it would be illegal to use it on the road because it would not pass a road worthy due to being unsafe. AMD and Intel drivers under Linux would be cars that could pass road worthy. To a person wanting to use a car would in matter that Nvidia car is faster if it unsafe the answer is for the majority they would not use the unsafe item. This is exactly what happening with general desktop and gaming with Linux.

Yes HPC/AI people are like people who take custom unsafe cars to a private race track and run them anyhow.

[mSparks]

Its how it crashes.


https://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/bl...nd_robustness/
You need more knowledge before you quote things. Just because a bug is open does not mean it valid.
.

That says
"If X11 restarts you're back at the login prompt. All drafts lost, games unsaved, work wasted."

Which is 100% false.
Firstly, demonstrates complete ignorance.
"If TCP/IP restarts you need to rewire your house, all downloads are lost, games wont play, work wasted".

X11 is just a protocol like TCP/IP or wayland, it can't start, restart, stop or any such thing, its just a naming scheme for 0s and 1s in memory.

Secondly, assuming he actually means Xorg server (which is a pretty big assumption).
Nope, Xorg server is completely independent of logins, applications or any work you are doing, unlike the wayland compositors it doesn't even need to run on the machine you are working on.

Thirdly,
Probably he's experiencing AMD GPU driver crashes, they will take out most of everything else, and no amount of "robustness protocol" is going to recover from a CPU not executing any instructions, production Nvidia and Intel drivers basically never crash.

Nvidia needs to fix their driver like it or not.

As clearly evidenced by you having to go all the way back to 2017 to find someone having a desktop related issue?
Funny. If not a little sad.

The bug you pulled out on AMD compared to the bug I pulled out shows why Nvidia on Linux

That AMD bug is pretty much universal and current, the bug you pulled was one person and definitely resolved 5 years ago.

in the gaming area is losing market to AMD

Its losing to AMD for 3 reasons.
1. https://store.steampowered.com/steamdeck/
2. old machines people aren't otherwise using any more that don't support or work well on windows, do support Linux, there is not suddenly a rush of people buying ~10 year old RX480 GPUs
3. AMD GPU support on Linux is better than AMD GPU support on windows (the GPL AMD driver destroys AMDs closed source one, because AMD only cares about consoles and puts no investment in its drivers). HOWEVER, it is not better than NVidia on either.

None of which are remotely relevant to developers and/or adopting wayland.