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KDE On Wayland: "The Biggest Thing Needed Now Is Adoption By 3rd Party Apps"

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  • Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

    The answer to that is absolute yes Could not find the good one where it x11 baremetal then weston then kwin.
    If you couldnt and I couldnt, then its reasonably safe to assume no one can.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    It slowed now because the IDE and so on have not been updated to make this absolutely friendly. But we are seeing different projects release Wayland support anyhow.

    Of course while sold stalled there was not really the focus to improve IDEs and the like. This is chicken and egg problem. You need chickens to get eggs and you eggs to get chickens. IDE having good support to develop applications need users developing those applications. Stalled is very nasty.
    No "chicken and egg", eggs were never designed into the system, so hardly surprising the chicken is not laying any.

    If it doesn't exist already, generally after 4 or 5 years of development the tooling becomes the priority. Be that android, unity, unreal engine, I can even easily debug X11 apps on windows and mac machines machines with quartz and/or cigwin. (but I wouldnt)

    The other aspect is wayland is soooo fragmented, kwin, mutter, weston, sway etc etc, dividing an already effectively none existent userbase over and over until there is no one left, at a time when all the "sex" is in VR, and none of them even consider how to composit VR.

    Now Apple Vision is incoming,

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news, But right now the wayland project has 12 to 24 months life expectancy, and the prognosis is overwhelmingly bad. If wayland needs 3rd party adoption now to survive, it doesnt survive, simple as that.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
      If it doesn't exist already, generally after 4 or 5 years of development the tooling becomes the priority. Be that android, unity, unreal engine, I can even easily debug X11 apps on windows and mac machines machines with quartz and/or cigwin. (but I wouldnt)
      Someone failed to do homework again.
      Enabling the Windows Subsystem for Linux to include support for Wayland and X server related scenarios - microsoft/wslg

      Remember how you were so sure that no one uses Weston. Windows developing Wayland applications Microsoft provides the parts todo that and it based on Weston and that using WSL2..

      In this lightning talk, I will present my port of Wayland 1.21.0 to macOS, as well as my epoll-shim setup hooks that make it easier to package cross-platform...

      Now Wayland application development 2022 on MacOS.

      mSparks so another case of a argument based on nothing. Quality of the IDE is about the only problem now. Platform support to develop wayland applications on Windows and MacOS already exists.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
        The other aspect is wayland is soooo fragmented, kwin, mutter, weston, sway etc etc, dividing an already effectively none existent userbase over and over
        Lets write another bit of creative guess work lacking correct research mSparks. Did you never think to spend the time to check if they are really fragmented.

        Did you not notice all those that you listed all use libwayland-server. Before 2020 yes you see lot of those compositors having unique extensions mostly because the upstream could not agree on a universal. Since 2020 we have been seeing them all come more unified as the core is able to agree on protocols for things so removing need to custom compositor work around..

        The eglstreams vs GBM/DMABUF dispute caused a lot of problems including fragmentation in the implementations. Yes this also explains why a feature appearing in weston that is the test compositor for libwayland-server is such big newest because features their do appear in the other compositors as they update their libwayland-server support when they are something core.

        Creative right something can look fragmented but in reality not be. Its like all wayland compositors use libinput for input handling no exception. There is a lot of common code between Wayland compositors.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

          Someone failed to do homework again.
          The only place windows exists in our build system is a window 7 VM on an oracle virtual box that fires up to compile any windows specific binaries that are otherwise managed from Mac and Linux. All our windows stuff is more dead than apache server on windows boxes. Absolutely no plans to adopt anything from microsoft, and the general expectation is windows will become just another Linux distribution in our lifetime. and if it doesn't no one cares.
          That build is managed from an X11 application that runs on the win7 VM and displays in the machine that triggered the build.
          A lot of people are using github actions for that now, but:
          After basically the whole #Microsoft #Azure cloud was hacked (see list of related sources on https://karl-voit.at/cloud/ ), the first follow-up incidents went public caused by missing containment actions: 60,000 emails were stolen from 10 #USA #StateDepartment accounts https://www.reuters.com/world/us/chinese-hackers-stole-60000-emails-us-state-department-microsoft-hack-senate-2023-09-27/ If you didn't understand until now: basically EVERYTHING at Microsoft got hacked and Microsoft can't (or won't) get rid of the intruders. Everything authenticated by Microsoft is tainted. Even #Windows auth.


          Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
          Remember how you were so sure that no one uses Weston. Windows developing Wayland applications Microsoft provides the parts todo that and it based on Weston and that using WSL2..
          I'm just quoting that KDE guy, he said
          "The Biggest Thing Needed Now Is Adoption By 3rd Party Apps"

          Take it up with him.

          Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
          Did you never think to spend the time to check if they are really fragmented.
          Did you?


          "Notably, Gnome Wayland, the default desktop environment for Ubuntu, is not supported as it does not support DRM leasing. Users using Gnome Wayland will need to switch to an alternative window manager/compositor in order to use SteamVR."
          Last edited by mSparks; 01 October 2023, 07:10 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
            The only place windows exists in our build system is a window 7 VM on an oracle virtual box that fires up to compile any windows specific binaries
            ​You have a problem Windows 7 went end of life as of 2020. So you should not have ever raised what could be done on Mac OS and Windows because you don't do that. Problem I do so that why you got ass kicked.

            Originally posted by mSparks View Post
            "The Biggest Thing Needed Now Is Adoption By 3rd Party Apps"
            I have not disputed that.

            The final stages to nail down new Wayland protocol bits you need applications that use those new protocol bits. So he is right. You presumed this problem was IDE and so on but we are not seeing that. Blender and other parties are able todo. You never considered that is possible with WSL2 and visual studio on windows to have quite a good IDE with wayland integration like the android studio. Of course you have never seen that right.

            Originally posted by mSparks View Post
            "Notably, Gnome Wayland, the default desktop environment for Ubuntu, is not supported as it does not support DRM leasing. Users using Gnome Wayland will need to switch to an alternative window manager/compositor in order to use SteamVR."
            Why is Gnome the old one out. Gnome need to disinfect their Wayland compositor from eglstreams hacks. Gnome in fact added a stack work around to support you Nvidia users. That has backfired horribly. KDE and Sway/wlroots and Weston lead developers were anti work around and kept on going back to Nvidia and saying fix it or we will drop support. Yes Sway/wlroots for quite some time had no Nvidia support at all because eglstreams was way too broken to bother with.

            eglstreams vs GBM/DMABUF has caused some very bad problems.

            What you are pointing to does not prove fragmentation of Wayland. What you are pointing is the problems the fragmentation between eglstreams vs GBM/DMABUF has caused that have to be cleaned up.

            Little fact you missed DRM leasing required to function correctly GBM/DMABUF. So no old Nvidia graphics cards because they don't support that and when you turn on GBM/DMABUF with Nvidia cards and x11 bare metal the swapchain number increases for bare metal so your latency gets worse. Welcome to hell here the problem that effects Nvidia Wayland also infects Nvidia x11 bare metal when you want to use DRM leasing. Nvidia need to fix their drivers they are broken.

            Fixes Nvidia Wayland needs Nvidia bare metal X11 needs as well in the Nvidia drivers.
            Last edited by oiaohm; 01 October 2023, 04:53 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
              ​You have a problem Windows 7 went end of life as of 2020. So you should not have ever raised what could be done on Mac OS and Windows because you don't do that. Problem I do so that why you got ass kicked.
              tell that to the customers, we have 1000 times more on windows 7 than wayland soooo. (and I dont blame them, win7 is the last half decent OS microsoft put out)
              "cleanroom" VM for the win, end of life for a VM that starts from the same state every time it does a compile doesn't matter a fraction as much as github and ms auth supply chain attacks the rest of the industry is experiencing right now.

              Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
              I have not disputed that.

              The final stages to nail down new Wayland protocol
              Wayland is nowhere near final stages, it doesn't even have 3rd party adoption yet, that's the first stage. Not even out the gate yet.

              Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
              Why is Gnome the old one out.
              They aren't, that's just one example.
              KDE can't record full screen as another example:
              Hello there! I was giving Wayland a try after eyeing it for a long time. It has been quite smooth, working better than X on the features they both can do, with one exception however – screen recording. I have installed the xdg-desktop-portal and xdg-desktop-portal-kde packages, as we as wireplumber. I’ve been running with the latter active for some days with no issues in regards to audio. Now, in OBS, I can correctly pick a window to record, the portal shows up all fine, and the recording wo...


              -> fragmentation.

              Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
              eglstreams vs GBM/DMABUF has caused some very bad problems.
              Not for X11, so I don't see how that is anything other than lame excuses for a bad design.
              Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
              Little fact you missed DRM leasing required to function correctly GBM/DMABUF. So no old Nvidia graphics cards because they don't support that and when you turn on GBM/DMABUF with Nvidia cards
              Then the design should not require DRM leasing. Having a DRM leasing requirement is a bad design choice.
              One of many afaict.

              All of which sum up to wayland not just never replacing X11, but never getting close to the adoption required for IBM to not kill it off.
              Last edited by mSparks; 01 October 2023, 08:25 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                They aren't, that's just one example.
                KDE can't record full screen as another example:
                https://forum.manjaro.org/t/screen-r...wayland/136669
                Read that link again. People using AMD/Intel graphics are having no issues using KDE to screen capture. That another case of bugger me the Nvidia driver is still busted.

                There comes a very common answer over and over again. Don't use Nvidia and expect stuff to work because Nvidia drivers are broken.

                Just because you are finding more than 1 example does not mean Wayland is busted.

                Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                Then the design should not require DRM leasing. Having a DRM leasing requirement is a bad design choice.
                One of many afaict.
                DRM Leasing was not designed for Wayland.

                DRM Lease was in fact designed for the X11 bare metal server from Intel driver developer funded by Valve who use to be the head of Xserver development at one time.

                DRM Lease exists due to issues doing VR with xserver. You want to use Valve VR you need working DRM lease that means you need working GBM/DMABUF even with X11 server bare metal. You want to use Valve gamescope because you are attempting to play a old game from steam you need working GBM/DMABUF even if you are under X11 server bare metal.

                mSparks please explain why if you say DRM Lease is bad design why are you complaining about Gnome missing it?

                Have you started to work out why when you look at Steam numbers with Linux on GPU in use you see a growing AMD/Intel market share even after you remove the steam deck from the numbers. Simple answer Nvidia in a lot of cases don't work with Valve software requirements.

                There was a time when Nvidia card was in 90% of Linux desktop users computers. But today Nvidia has falling under 30% for rare distributions with the most common being somewhere under 15 percent for most distributions all due to these incompatibility. Remember majority of Linux users don't have Wayland installed and we know this by distribution package stats.

                Things have gone horrible wrong in the Linux Desktop Space for Nvidia. Yes Debian popcon and other package stats you can go back over 15 years and you can watch Nvidia starting to fad away after GBM/DMABUF comes a feature.

                mSparks shock horror right that Nvidia lost market share on Linux. Shock horror that Nvidia has lost market share due to issues. Issues with Nvidia drivers don't just appear for Wayland users either they appear for X11 bare metal as well. Nvidia need to fix their driver and the items they need to fix are the same for Wayland and X11 Bare metal and if they don't fix them Nvidia will keep on losing Linux market share. Also Nvidia pricing is not helping either but the decline started before Nvidia started pricing stuff stupidly..

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

                  Read that link again. People using AMD/Intel graphics are having no issues using KDE to screen capture. That another case of bugger me the Nvidia driver is still busted.

                  There comes a very common answer over and over again. Don't use Nvidia and expect stuff to work because Nvidia drivers are broken.

                  Just because you are finding more than 1 example does not mean Wayland is busted.


                  DRM Leasing was not designed for Wayland.

                  DRM Lease was in fact designed for the X11 bare metal server from Intel driver developer funded by Valve who use to be the head of Xserver development at one time.

                  DRM Lease exists due to issues doing VR with xserver. You want to use Valve VR you need working DRM lease that means you need working GBM/DMABUF even with X11 server bare metal. You want to use Valve gamescope because you are attempting to play a old game from steam you need working GBM/DMABUF even if you are under X11 server bare metal.

                  mSparks please explain why if you say DRM Lease is bad design why are you complaining about Gnome missing it?

                  Have you started to work out why when you look at Steam numbers with Linux on GPU in use you see a growing AMD/Intel market share even after you remove the steam deck from the numbers. Simple answer Nvidia in a lot of cases don't work with Valve software requirements.

                  There was a time when Nvidia card was in 90% of Linux desktop users computers. But today Nvidia has falling under 30% for rare distributions with the most common being somewhere under 15 percent for most distributions all due to these incompatibility. Remember majority of Linux users don't have Wayland installed and we know this by distribution package stats.

                  Things have gone horrible wrong in the Linux Desktop Space for Nvidia. Yes Debian popcon and other package stats you can go back over 15 years and you can watch Nvidia starting to fad away after GBM/DMABUF comes a feature.

                  mSparks shock horror right that Nvidia lost market share on Linux. Shock horror that Nvidia has lost market share due to issues. Issues with Nvidia drivers don't just appear for Wayland users either they appear for X11 bare metal as well. Nvidia need to fix their driver and the items they need to fix are the same for Wayland and X11 Bare metal and if they don't fix them Nvidia will keep on losing Linux market share. Also Nvidia pricing is not helping either but the decline started before Nvidia started pricing stuff stupidly..
                  your infatuation with nvidia fascinates me. hardly surprising nvidia has lost some market share, not everyone is doing hpc and ai, and the 7900XTX from AMD is the first competitive card AMD have released for PC since they bought a failing ATI decades ago.

                  Even if AMD had 100% market share of new cards, wayland would still be broken by design with zero interest in adopting it from 3rd parties, graphics drivers aren't the problem, because if they were X11 would have the same problems which it doesn't.

                  The whole reason wayland is so fragmented and there are a dozen or more different implementations of it - even between the "big guys" like gnome and KDE, is no one wayland compositor is as good as xorg-server and everyone has different excuses why.

                  3rd parties dont give a shit about the excuses, they just want to support their customers with the minimal overhead possible, or offer something meaningfully better their customers want, they aren't something wayland offers, far from it.
                  Last edited by mSparks; 02 October 2023, 05:37 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                    your infatuation with nvidia fascinates me. hardly surprising nvidia has lost some market share, not everyone is doing hpc and ai, and the 7900XTX from AMD is the first competitive card AMD have released for PC since they bought a failing ATI decades ago.
                    But that does not match the steam numbers for Linux users. The 2016 RX480 is the first competitive AMD card on Linux by market share. So there is some other factor going on here. Basic the other factor is that Nvidia driver garbage for feature provide.

                    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                    graphics drivers aren't the problem, because if they were X11 would have the same problems which it doesn't.

                    While the situation has improved a little for NVIDIA and Wayland, they're not really there yet and so NVIDIA are now keeping a public list of the issues split between drivers and either protocol or compositor limitations.

                    DRM leasing not working anywhere with Nvidia cards is documented in the list of items that don't work with Nvidia drivers. Yes this is a fault that effects X11 and Wayland so meaning you cannot use Valve VR and have Nvidia hardware for quite some time.

                    Screen capture using GBM/DMABUF of course due to this stuff still being broken does not work correctly with Nvidia be you using X11 or Wayland.

                    All the xwayland issues of course apply when you are using gamescope on top of X11 bare metal because you are playing a legacy game that valve steam has provided wrapped.

                    X11 bare metal using the generic universal driver modesetting with Nvidia drivers shows all the same problems as using Wayland compositor. Why because this is X11 xserver trying to use the KMS and GBM/DMABUF interfaces that are simply broken.

                    Do you know what the original goal of the X11 xserver modesetting driver is. That right remove the need for vendor particular drivers inside the X11 x.org code based.

                    https://www.phoronix.com/news/MTQ0Mzc Hardware accelerated screen capture worked on Wayland in 2013 for AMD and Intel. This feature does not work if you are using Nvidia GPU under wayland or if you are using the modesetting driver with Nvidia hardware. Fun one AMD and Intel hardware accelerated screen capture can capture text based terminal when you don't have X11 running. Guess what Nvidia hardware accelerated screen capture cannot capture text based with the closed source driver.

                    Yes Wayland screen capture fails with Nvidia because Nvidia cannot do output buffer capture independent to graphical environment in use like AMD and Intel can under Linux. Yes the AMD and Intel independent to graphical environment in use means it does not care if you have a Wayland compositor loaded or X11 or stock built in Linux kernel frame-buffer terminal.

                    There are a long list of features that you can do with AMD and Intel graphics but you cannot do them with Nvidia closed source driver under Linux.

                    The argument that the problem does not effect X11 is not true. The argument that X11 bare metal does not have most of the same problems is also not true.

                    Ok some problems under Wayland are worse with Nvidia because you are using Wayland because Nvidia limited hack around is blocked but that does not mean the problem was not already present under X11.

                    mSparks this is the problem lot of people you doing anti-wayland rant use Nvidia example after Nvidia example without in fact being aware that the fault they are pointing at like screen capture not working also applies under X11 in a slightly different way.

                    Lets say you wanted to screen capture going from frame-buffer terminal to X11 using the xstart command because you were making a tutorial needing that you have Intel/AMD gpu you can make that recording but you have Nvidia closed source driver you cannot make that recording. The reason why this does not work with Nvidia source driver is the same defect that causes screen capture with Nvidia closed source driver to be problem with Wayland. Wayland compositors make existing Nvidia problems/limitations way more in face.

                    Yes it really simple to say this problem does not exist under X11 but exists under Wayland and miss the problem exists under X11 and it being covered by an Nvidia work around that is not feature complete against AMD or Intel. Yes the wayland compositor ripped away the Nvidia smoke and mirrors hiding their driver defects not in fact finding new defects.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                      But that does not match the steam numbers for Linux users.
                      According to the steam numbers no one on linux is using Intel GPUs....
                      steam is very specific to linux gamers, and linux gamers are not remotely representative of linux users.

                      You are taking an apple from a tree then running round the streets screaming everyone who uses linux lives in house made of cellulose. No ones convinced, you just look insane.
                      Considerably smaller than the list of AMD driver issues - and not remotely related to "minor" wayland bugs like not being able to move a window reliably on AMD or NVidia or Intel without the entire machine crashing.

                      The rest is just a load of babble that has nothing to do with offering third parties low support overhead and something of benefit to their users.

                      3rd parties choice is easy. Target X11 and cover the vast majority of linux machines that use X11, and users masochistic enough to stomach wayland can use it through Xwayland, and when they have issues just do what valve did and implicitly tell them to use X11.
                      Last edited by mSparks; 02 October 2023, 10:47 AM.

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