Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

KDE On Wayland: "The Biggest Thing Needed Now Is Adoption By 3rd Party Apps"

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    you have odd frames here and there being displayed twice with 60vsync.
    =30fps

    and yep doesnt matter windows, linux, wayland or X11, if you cant manage 60fps, you get 30fps.

    thing is, wayland generally gets at least 10% less (often much more) "free" fps than X11, so it is disproportional harder for 3rd parties to hit >60fps on wayland, users - especially gamers notice that big hit, and therefore have no interest in wayland, where the only difference they notice over X11 is that hit, the batshit crazy high input latency and other stuff not working.

    but ignore me, Im sure you are right that redhat taking the "windows phone" approach to their linux distribution will work out just great. 3rd parties will universally adopt it just like they did windows phone, and users definitely won't switch to something better.
    Last edited by mSparks; 29 September 2023, 10:54 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
      and yep doesnt matter windows, linux, wayland or X11, if you cant manage 60fps, you get 30fps.
      https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/..._fps_never_60/
      Skyrim the curse. When you vsync on a 60hz system it never hits 60fps but it does not magically drop to 30fps output either. This is not the only game that incorrectly applies a frame limiter based for VRR to standard vsync.

      If you are 10 percent under you end up with some frames at 30 fps because they are displayed twice but with majority of frames displaying at 60fps. Whats going on here not every frame render uses the same amount of GPU/CPU time. There is a 20% load difference between the most complex frame to render and the lightest one to render on average. 10% under still 90 percent of frames are displayed at 60fps and there will be sections of game play sitting at a perfect 60 fps. Now lets say you are 10 percent over so a6 66 fps now a rendered frame is being skipped if you don't have a limiter. Horrible as it sounds 10% above 60fps and 10% under both end up with FPS player target accuracy messed up.

      Basically it does not work the way you make out.

      Originally posted by mSparks View Post
      thing is, wayland generally gets at least 10% less (often much more) "free" fps than X11, so it is disproportional harder for 3rd parties to hit >60fps on wayland, users -
      This is not true for the general case that the problem. AMD and Intel the FPS between X11 and Wayland setups these days is the same. The different you are talking about only applies to Nvidia hardware users since 2022 fix. That fix may be a reason to go flat default Wayland thinking that majority of Linux installs are AMD and Intel graphics.

      The default interface of the steamdeck runs with gamescope being a Wayland compositor with everything inside Xwayland. Valve would not do that if it under performed compared to X11.

      Remember dominate GPU on the hardware Linux is installed on is Intel followed by AMD then followed by Nvidia.

      Steam survey for gamers on Linux

      AMD is greater market share than Nvidia for GPUs used by Linux gamers.

      mSparks with Linux Desktop users shock horror Nvidia users are the Minority the general Linux user happens to use AMD or Intel graphics. mSparks Linux users are not Windows users. This does start explaining why some distributions treat Nvidia users as second class citizens because Nvidia on Linux desktop really does not have the market share. This is why Nvidia users on Linux really do need to get up Nvidia over the quality of their drivers because they are being left high and dry if Nvidia does not fix the drivers.

      Nvidia users cannot expect major Linux distributions to take their problems into account because they don't have the market share to justify that.
      Last edited by oiaohm; 29 September 2023, 12:05 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
        If you are 10 percent under you end up with some frames at 30 fps because they are displayed twice but with majority of frames displaying at 60fps.
        doesn't matter, 2 identical frames in 33ms has the visual fidelity of 30fps, any kind of reaction based visual display is limited by that latency.

        This situation is one of the few cases where a VRR monitor does make some sense, because with VRR you really do get "57fps", which you aren't going to be able to distinguish from 60fps.
        But the cheaper, easier and more reliable solution is to just turn the settings down to get it back to 60,
        or,
        just stick with X11....
        Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
        AMD and Intel the FPS between X11 and Wayland setups these days is the same.
        The "same" in the same way 7% of firefox linux users are using wayland is the same as zero users using wayland
        Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
        AMD is greater market share than Nvidia for GPUs used by Linux gamers.
        AMD Linux users play games many times more than NVIDIA Linux users (because there is more you can do with nvidia on Linux than just play games :wink: )
        windows phone has the greatest market share of non posix mobile operating systems
        and other useful stats.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
          This situation is one of the few cases where a VRR monitor does make some sense, because with VRR you really do get "57fps", which you aren't going to be able to distinguish from 60fps.
          No it depends on your VRR monitor. Some VRR monitors have a min clock of 60hz so a 57fps feed will be solved by doubling frames the same way a normal vsync will.

          Originally posted by mSparks View Post
          AMD Linux users play games many times more than NVIDIA Linux users (because there is more you can do with nvidia on Linux than just play games :wink: )
          AMD/Nvidia being basically 50/50 for games(note on the steam numbers I removed the steamdeck) is out of wack for Ubuntu/Debian stats on installed packages. Debian/ubuntu package install stats have Nvidia installed on less than 6 percent of systems and about half the installs being graphical desktops.

          mSparks the hard reality is for majority of Linux desktop users they don't use the extra features that Nvidia cards could offer because they simply don't have one. Yes roughly 1 in 10 have Nvidia cards that means 9 in 10 don't have Nvidia cards.

          Yes so you are right that it would make sense for AMD Linux users to play more games than Linux Nvidia users but not for the reason you are thinking. The reality there are way more AMD Linux users than Nvidia ones and you can find that by package install stats. Problem is you don't see enough in the steam survey. AMD/Intel users must like doing something else on their PCs other than playing games that are keeping themselves too busy to show up on steam.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by oiaohm View Post


            Yes so you are right that it would make sense for AMD Linux users to play more games than Linux Nvidia users but not for the reason you are thinking. The reality there are way more AMD Linux users than Nvidia ones and you can find that by package install stats. Problem is you don't see enough in the steam survey. AMD/Intel users must like doing something else on their PCs other than playing games that are keeping themselves too busy to show up on steam.
            It varies a lot by distro tho, I would expect most "fresh" nvidia users to go with popOS, simply because they have a nvidia specific iso and ubuntu requires installation from the command line.
            LTT effectively recommended linux mint.

            AMD/nvidia are not remotely an issue for 3rd party adoption of wayland tho. That is 100% because you can't develop for wayland unless you are using wayland, hardly surprising that has seen as much adoption as windows phone would have if you could only develop for windows phone while using windows.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
              It varies a lot by distro tho, I would expect most "fresh" nvidia users to go with popOS, simply because they have a nvidia specific iso and ubuntu requires installation from the command line.
              LTT effectively recommended linux mint.
              Fedora is highest you find. Popos stats have Nvidia usage based on installed package data lower than Ubuntu and Debian. Mint is about the same as Debian and Ubuntu.

              This is the problem i don't need to guess these numbers just know the right places to look for them. The reality is Nvidia does not have a huge market share.

              mSparks you really need to stop making assumes on what way Nvidia usage in distributions are. The reality is like it or not no matter the Linux distribution as long as the distribution is not Nvidia only the dominate desktop users are AMD/Intel graphics.

              If there is a performance problem you need to prove it on AMD or Intel hardware or you simply don't have enough market share that Distribution maintainers should care about you.

              Did you forget for one min that Wayland nests. Weston runs on bare metal X11 so does gamescope so does many others.

              Developers were not going to port their applications while Nvidia and AMD/Intel was in disagreement. Think about it having to have 2 different code lines one for GBM/DMABUF and one for EGLSTREAMS was just not practical. This is why 2020 is a turning point. Of course then parties wanted to wait a year to make sure Nvidia was not backing out that means no development for 2021. Then we see a stack start in 2022. Wine, Blender... lot more start their serous attempt at Wayland support in 2022. Things about Wayland changed massively in 2022.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

                mSparks you really need to stop making assumes on what way Nvidia usage in distributions are. The reality is like it or not no matter the Linux distribution as long as the distribution is not Nvidia only the dominate desktop users are AMD/Intel graphics.
                I'm not the one making the assumptions, you are the one saying its nvidias fault 3rd parties are not adopting wayland, when they try its a buggy pile of shit while simultaneously saying ignoring the fact that AMD users suffer from exactly the same wayland bugs and more graphic stack bugs.

                Do you acknowledge wayland isn't yet ready for production use?
                Do you acknowledge that developers use the system most suited to production use for development?
                Do you realise if you try and develop for wayland on any other compositor than wayland you fail at "display not found".

                A compositor has basically two jobs.
                1. make it easy for 3rd party developers to identify what screens a user has, and then place their windows, colour correct, on those screens.
                2. generally manage IO from multiple sources with absolutely the minimal latency possible.

                Wayland fails catastrophically at both by design.
                So its hardly surprising 15 years in it's still barely more than a hastily slapped together tech demo, and leaving developers on fedora with no other option than to not use fedora isn't going to turn that around - imho.

                Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                Weston runs on bare metal X11
                Oh,
                How do I get


                working on "bare metal X11" then,
                because all I get is "Can't connect to display"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                  I'm not the one making the assumptions, you are the one saying its nvidias fault 3rd parties are not adopting wayland, when they try its a buggy pile of shit while simultaneously saying ignoring the fact that AMD users suffer from exactly the same wayland bugs and more graphic stack bugs.
                  But they are linked like it or not. Until 2020 a lot of changes to the Wayland protocol to fix up different limitations of the Wayland protocol could not get into the protocol because the feature was not sure to work with eglstreams or would work with eglstreams but then not GBM/DMABUF.


                  Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                  Do you acknowledge wayland isn't yet ready for production use?
                  ​This area has changed a lot since 2020.

                  I think it’s only fair to call me an X apologist. I get incredibly frustrated when people talk about dropping support for X11. I fight back against the notion that some day X11 will be dead and unmaintained, a curiosity of a time before. I’ve spoken to people in my circles at-length about the accessibility tools that Wayland simply hasn’t been capable of supporting that X11 has. A lot of times, I’ve ended this conversation with “Maybe 5 years from now it’ll be good”. Well it’s 5 years in since I first said those words, and you know what, I’m actually pleasantly surprised.

                  Parties who had reviewed Wayland in the past are now giving other results.

                  Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                  Do you acknowledge that developers use the system most suited to production use for development?
                  Then you quote Blender to make a point that starts wayland support in 2022. Somehow you fail to draw something important from this event. Or wine starting 2022... long list of applications here. Something happened.

                  2022 is when you see a lot of developers start changing what they are using in their development envornment.
                  Originally posted by mSparks View Post

                  A compositor has basically two jobs.
                  1. make it easy for 3rd party developers to identify what screens a user has, and then place their windows, colour correct, on those screens.
                  2. generally manage IO from multiple sources with absolutely the minimal latency possible.
                  This is correct to a point. But when you have eglstreams and gbm/dmabuf using different buffer formats lot of things came impossible to implement with the minimal latency possible. The incompatible structure problem.

                  Issues you have with X11 and Prime with Nvidia with latency issues again the incompatible structure problem. Wayland development was stalled out by Nvidia broken driver mess and X11 on bare metal prime issues also come straight form the Nvidia driver mess.

                  minimal latency possible requires the GPU vendors to get along with shared structures. Yes people having latency issues with Prime on laptops with Nvidia with X11 does trace to the same problem that was stalling out Wayland development.

                  Yes Nvidia has not got their but on to the same page as everyone else yet. But Nvidia is working on getting there.

                  Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                  How do I get


                  working on "bare metal X11" then,
                  because all I get is "Can't connect to display"
                  You did not run the program inside weston on X11 or gamescope did you. Remember you will have gamescope if you use steam games.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

                    You did not run the program inside weston on X11 or gamescope did you. Remember you will have gamescope if you use steam games.
                    No, because they are unstable and crash and require significant effort to understand why and setup for no benefit targeting no users.

                    It's possible to debug code inside weston/gamescope (similar to an android emulator running on an OS/DE of choice)?
                    Meanwhile for android dev teams I can very quickly and easily fire up a full android emulator, plug into every aspect of applications running in it, get detailed breakdowns of any crashes in the wild, without going anywhere near any one elses hardware.

                    Like how long do you think it will be before I can do something like this

                    for virtual and physical wayland devices?

                    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                    lot of things came impossible to implement with the minimal latency possible.
                    Hence it will never replace X11.

                    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                    Wayland development was stalled out by Nvidia broken driver mess
                    Even if that was true.
                    Its stalled now because it lacks any tooling, isn't 3rd party dev friendly, is impossible to use for anything you would want from a compositor, and doesn't offer any benefits to anyone except massage certain egos inside redhat.
                    So if it isn't or wasn't true, it would still have been stalled, because those fundamental issues as true then as they are today.

                    Waylands issues are much more fundamental than known bugs, graphics driver issues or 3rd party developers not toeing the Redhat line, and I see zero evidence they will be resolved in the next 12 months when RH will use the exodus from fedora as rationale to very likely kill the whole project - the same way Sun killed project looking glass (ooooppps).

                    If past performance is a sign of future returns, wouldnt surprise me if IBM sells redhat to oracle shortly after.
                    Last edited by mSparks; 30 September 2023, 07:59 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                      It's possible to debug code inside weston/gamescope (similar to an android emulator running on an OS/DE of choice)?
                      The answer to that is absolute yes and that what the retroarch developers did.
                      This week I decided to do some research for the Wayland porting of the KDE Plasma workspaces. One of the features we will need in future is a Wayland session compositor which runs nested on a Wayla…

                      You find KDE developers for kwin doing this back in 2013. Could not find the good one where it x11 baremetal then weston then kwin. 3 way stack with debugging in everything hooked up.

                      There are a few people who have custom for kdevelop to do like the android setup with wayland applications.

                      Something to remember X11 nesting under Nvidia has been broken forever. So you are writing a X11 application you think it right and you give it to someone and you find out you depended on something is linked to a particular windows manager or what ever under X11.

                      The wayland tooling is not as good as it can be. Even developing X11 application it still a good idea to use gamescope and xwayland because this form of nesting in fact works and will let you see if you are using anything dependent on the current X11 windows manager or X11 compositor.

                      Wayland something fits in be you developing X11 applications or Wayland applications.

                      Originally posted by mSparks View Post
                      Its stalled now because it lacks any tooling, isn't 3rd party dev friendly
                      It slowed now because the IDE and so on have not been updated to make this absolutely friendly. But we are seeing different projects release Wayland support anyhow.

                      Until 2020 wayland development was truly stalled. The eglstreams vs GBM/DMABUF stuff has resulted in over 20 extensions to the Wayland protocol being unable to progress. These are extensions need to deal with different issues users have been complaining about. Most of these extensions were marked as required in 2009.

                      Of course while sold stalled there was not really the focus to improve IDEs and the like. This is chicken and egg problem. You need chickens to get eggs and you eggs to get chickens. IDE having good support to develop applications need users developing those applications. Stalled is very nasty.



                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X