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KDE Plasma 5.25 Beta Released With Many Improvements, Wayland Support Maturing

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  • #31
    Originally posted by vegabook View Post
    Again this is total and utter bull. For gaming, the Deck has a gaming mode. You can't do anything to how that mode works, that's how it boots, and it happens to use WAYLAND in that mode. Gees 🤦.

    Nobody games on the deck in Desktop mode. That's what the gaming mode is FOR.
    You need to calm down.
    You have already made it clear that gaming mode uses Wayland. You don't need to repeat yourself, and it's hardly relevant to anything you and I discussing.
    Where did I say anything about gaming in desktop mode?
    You really need to stay away from subjects you patently know nothing about.
    You really need to either:
    A. Stop using your device for what it wasn't meant to do
    B. Understand that it's still an early complex product and it's not going to do everything sensibly or perfectly until it gets time to get polished
    C. Take advantage of its open nature and figure out how to solve the problem yourself. It really shouldn't be that hard, so quit your whining.
    Last edited by schmidtbag; 19 May 2022, 01:38 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
      Holy crap you are so dense. Calm down and read more carefully.
      You have already made it clear that gaming mode uses Wayland. You don't need to repeat yourself, and it's hardly relevant to anything you and I discussing.
      Where did I say anything about gaming in desktop mode?

      You really need to either:
      A. Stop using your device for what it wasn't meant to do
      B. Understand that it's still an early complex product and it's not going to do everything sensibly or perfectly until it gets time to get polished
      C. Take advantage of its open nature and figure out how to solve the problem yourself. It really shouldn't be that hard, so quit your whining.
      @schmidtbag: "In any case, even in that best-case scenario, you'll find there are instances where Wayland was performing significantly worse. So long as that still happens on a gaming device, it isn't worth using."

      haha so you know better than Valve Inc? Which happens to have chosen Wayland for their gaming device. If they don't use it for desktop, it's because of KDE stability.

      Somewhere else you said something about Wayland being lighter weight, but oh now we mustn't use it on a gaming device because the performance lorry/civic whatever. You're spinning faster than Joe Biden's brain on merry-go-around.

      You've been caught with your pants down talking about a subject you know nothing about, and no amount of "you're dense" obfuscation can wash that out I'm afraid.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by vegabook View Post
        haha so you know better than Valve Inc? Which happens to have chosen Wayland for their gaming device. If they don't use it for desktop, it's because of KDE stability.
        According to benchmarks, apparently I do. I wouldn't have chosen Arch or KDE for their default configuration either, yet here we are. I'm not saying they're all bad choices, just not the most optimal ones.
        In any case, it's rather hypocritical of you to laugh, seeing as you're the one complaining about how Valve has it set up; I don't really care.
        Somewhere else you said something about Wayland being lighter weight, but oh now we mustn't use it on a gaming device because the performance lorry/civic whatever. You're spinning faster than Joe Biden's brain on merry-go-around.
        Maybe if you stopped deliberately ignoring certain points, what I said would make more sense to you. Wayland is lighter-weight, Xwayland is inherently heavier. I shouldn't have to spell this out for you.
        You've been caught with your pants down talking about a subject you know nothing about, and no amount of "you're dense" obfuscation can wash that out I'm afraid.
        Says the one who doesn't know how to enable Wayland in desktop mode...

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        • #34
          Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
          According to benchmarks, apparently I do. I wouldn't have chosen Arch or KDE for their default configuration either, yet here we are. I'm not saying they're all bad choices, just not the most optimal ones.
          In any case, it's rather hypocritical of you to laugh, seeing as you're the one complaining about how Valve has it set up; I don't really care.

          Maybe if you stopped deliberately ignoring certain points, what I said would make more sense to you. Wayland is lighter-weight, Xwayland is inherently heavier. I shouldn't have to spell this out for you.

          Says the one who doesn't know how to enable Wayland in desktop mode...
          you're truly living in a parallel universe if you honestly think that, without even owning the device, basing your arguments entirely on hearsay, contradicting yourself multiple times, you still think you know more than Valve Inc about their own device. Haha truly your hubris puts you in a class of one!

          Seeks like brain is living in some kind of quantum uncertainty field where true=false at the same time and where the obvious is illusory. They should have hired you to replace Jen Psaki! You'd be perfect.

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          • #35
            Honestly, with 5.24 I'd recommend the Wayland session for most people on Intel graphics. The only problem I've had is a hang that seems to be specific to some RDNA2 cards otherwise it should be OK for many on AMD graphics as well. The one feature I'd like to see is the ability for Kwin to recover after a crash, which has already been demonstrated by David Edmundson (2:46).

            Edit: Caveat: I run Wayland with this patch to stop Wayland apps crashing if there's a bit of IO.
            Last edited by ResponseWriter; 20 May 2022, 03:30 PM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
              Wayland is lighter-weight, Xwayland is inherently heavier. I shouldn't have to spell this out for you.
              .
              Then, please explain why you started out your responses explaining that Wayland had no place on a system with limited resources? Is it lighter weight, or not?

              Please simply admit, that you did not know that the Steam Deck has a wayland gaming mode, that Xwayland overhead is therefore irrelevant since it will only every be used in desktop mode, where even a Pi does fine.

              You've been running around in circles trying to avoid this obvious mistake that you have made, thereby confusing _actual_ noobs who might come to these forums for information.

              Moreover by asserting, without even owning the device, that you know better than the makers of the device, you've lost credibility completely and utterly.
              Last edited by vegabook; 19 May 2022, 04:54 PM.

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              • #37
                I'd say some other stuff like refactoring how screens are handled in kwin is the most important bit as it could have big improvements for multi-monitor users.

                https://blog.vladzahorodnii.com/2022...n-plasma-5-25/

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by vegabook View Post
                  Then, please explain why you started out your responses explaining that Wayland had no place on a system with limited resources? Is it lighter weight, or not?
                  I did explain it, several times. Not my fault you deliberately ignore inconvenient truths.
                  Please simply admit, that you did not know that the Steam Deck has a wayland gaming mode, that Xwayland overhead is therefore irrelevant since it will only every be used in desktop mode, where even a Pi does fine.
                  I have no problem admitting I didn't know gaming mode used Wayland. I assumed that since desktop mode didn't have it, and since the xwayland overhead does matter in some cases, it would have been sensible that they didn't yet use it. So no, the overhead is not irrelevant.
                  I don't know how many times I have to tell you that using Wayland on a Pi makes sense. You're so caught up in disagreeing with me and being overly offended that you don't even realize when I agree with you. Maybe if you would calm down and stop thinking the world is out to get you, this could have been a more civil discussion. My original reply to you wasn't aggressive. You decided to escalate this.
                  You've been running around in circles trying to avoid this obvious mistake that you have made, thereby confusing _actual_ noobs who might come to these forums for information.
                  Which mistake? I made 3 primary points, each of which you haven't disproven:
                  1. Xwayland can have detrimental effects on performance
                  2. Wayland is not stable enough for everyone to use yet
                  3. If you don't like how the system behaves, then either fix it yourself or use it the way it was intended (for gaming)
                  Just because you don't like my answer, doesn't mean it's wrong.
                  You were better off spending all this time figuring out how to enable Wayland than whining. I wouldn't be surprised if you could run this and trick whatever the DM is to use Wayland:
                  ln -s /usr/share/wayland-sessions/plasmawayland.desktop /usr/share/xsessions/plasma.desktop
                  Don't be an idiot and copy plasma.desktop first in case it fails. Don't say I didn't warn you.
                  Moreover by asserting, without even owning the device, that you know better than the makers of the device, you've lost credibility completely and utterly.
                  Did you actually read this?:
                  https://www.phoronix.com/forums/foru...32#post1324532
                  That's a best-case scenario with a CPU possessing more resources than a game would ever know what to do with and a GPU that is leaps and bounds better than the Deck's. In most of those tests, the GPU is the bottleneck. And yet, there are cases where Xwayland causes regressions. Tell me, all-wise and all-knowing one: how do you think a 15W APU is supposed to yield better results when the CPU could be the bottleneck? The Deck is expected to play modern titles, even AAA titles. In case you're not aware, 4c/8t isn't always enough for a lot of modern games. So when you have the added overhead of wine and DXVK, stop lying to yourself thinking that Xwayland isn't going to have an impact. Even DXVK is known to hurt performance if you don't have enough threads.
                  That article also exemplifies why KDE wasn't the best choice.

                  So - what do you have to prove with your credibility? "Because Valve did it!" is not a good reason. Pick any tech company at random and you'll find a sub-optimal decision for a product.

                  Wayland has come a long way and considering how well it performs in a lot of cases, it very likely could some day be the best option for gaming. Right now, it isn't.

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                  • #39
                    You're acting like the Steam Deck is some choked up Intel Atom powered netbook from 2010. It's a 4c/8t Zen2 APU with 16GB of LPDDR5. The CPU can turbo to 3.5 GHz, and GPU up to 1.6 GHz. It runs AAA games like Doom: Eternal at 60 FPS and high settings. The deck is fast. It's far more performant the vast majority of mobile systems out there.

                    Secondly, Steamdeck's native "Gaming Mode" uses Wayland. That means any non-native Wayland game you play (which is most of them), are using XWayland. Squeezing every single drop of performance out of this thing is paramount to Valve, and if XWayland was a problem, they wouldn't be using it. You keep talking about SOME regressions in performance in those benchmarks, while ignoring that in most cases, Wayland was faster. Hence likely why Gamescope uses a Wayland session instead of X.

                    Thirdly, Desktop mode on the Steamdeck isn't particularly intended for gaming. So any extra overhead XWayland MIGHT have is not even relevant.

                    I will reiterate: I own a Deck, and it's fast. It's not a 2c/2t Celeron in a Chromebook screaming for dear life just checking your email.


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                    • #40
                      I've been testing out wayland this past week (not this version) and its pretty easy to cause conflicts/crashes/UI alignment issues or DPI problems.

                      The Fractional scaling system they have for System Displays STILL causes blurring if you select anything fractional.
                      Probably a GTK/QT problem but still; you don't experience this on X11 version of the desktop which I often run at %125 scaling. (4k)

                      Additionally proton/game performance on Wayland was not better; in fact most games had frame timing stutter issues even if the framerate was above 60fps. Who knows when it will improve.

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