KDE Plasma 5.25 Beta Released With Many Improvements, Wayland Support Maturing

[schmidtbag]

I'm not going to argue with someone who made erroneous assumptions about the Steam Deck. We need to have a common base of knowledge about the machine, and you don't have it.

What are the errors in my assumptions? I know what its specs are, and I know what it's expected to do. You are trying to deviate from that and use your personal preferences as if they apply to everyone. If that's not what you intended, then again: what's preventing you from just enabling Wayland yourself? That's the beauty of an open platform: you don't need Valve to set it up the way you want, because you can do it.

a) It has two modes, gaming, and desktop. I was talking about desktop.
b) it uses a custom Arch with tons of kernel patches to run its controls. They're not upstreamed yet so you lose a lot of functionality if you replace Steam's OS.
c) I simply want what Wayland on my other computers delivers: much better support for heterogenous multi-monitors.
d) Your xwayland chatter is irrelevant since we're not talking about gaming mode on the deck.

a) You keep avoiding my question: what prevents you from running Wayland in desktop mode?
b) Hence me saying "use Valve's repos". Install the vanilla Arch version of KDE and the Valve version of the kernel.
c) In what way does X11 not offer that? EDIT: Nevermind, I think I understand what you're trying to say here now.
d) And yet I agree with you about Wayland's usefulness in many desktop applications, yet you're so fixated on arguing.

[vegabook]

So on the top of my head and an issue I experienced a couple of weeks ago with Ubuntu 20.04 (which by default uses Wayland unless you have NVidia GPU which in my case I didn't), screen sharing (ergo VNC) with Wayland is completely broken, i.e.

1. Only one client can connect to the ubuntu VNC session at a time.
2. The protocol is incomplete, i.e. VNC clients that use the automatic resize mode just crash because the Wayland VNC server that Ubuntu uses didn't implement it correctly
3. It randomly crashes (including freezing the machine).
4. The last and by far the most frustrating one from a usability standpoint, some applications are not network aware. In my case specifically Gnome Terminal wasn't network aware which means that when you typed a single key such as "a" it would trigger 10-15 times on the VNC machine server. The only way around this was to type as slow as a turtle soaked in molasses on a hot summers day.

So when I say that Wayland is not ready, I really do mean it and I have evidence to back it up if you actually want to entertain yourself and go through my post history. X11 may not do the fancy things that Wayland solves (i.e. multi DPI monitor setups) but some basic things have historically been completely borked. Probably the most frustrating one for my company where we use Fedora was the constant issues with video screen sharing/conferencing, not sure if that has been resolved yet since I moved to Manjaro some time ago cause I didn't have time to deal with this.

Yes. Indeed screen sharing has been a problem. Teamviewer is fine, but lots of other stuff I haven't retried and yes it was breaking this kind of stuff. Also screen capture, though this has largely been fixed, I prioritised the high-dpi stuff over screen sharing, but if your priorites are weighted differently, I can see how Wayland is not yet for you.

[vegabook]

And what exactly is preventing you from running it in desktop mode? I don't know what you're rabbiting about when it's a non-issue. If they somehow managed to lock it out, nothing is preventing you from wiping the OS with your own version of Arch and use Valve's repositories (if there even are any). The fact of the matter is, Wayland should not yet be the default compositor. If that's not what you were suggesting then I really don't get the point of your post.
You're the one who brought up the Pi, for whatever reason.

I don't know how to emphasize further that Wayland really excels at certain workloads while isn't [yet] so great in others. While I personally don't get how so many people here apparently have unusably unstable experiences with KDE and/or Wayland, the fact of the matter is, it's common enough that Wayland is not ready for primetime. If it works for you, again: nothing is preventing you from using it. So just turn it on...

I'm not going to argue with someone who made erroneous assumptions about the Steam Deck. We need to have a common base of knowledge about the machine, and you don't have it.

Everything you say above, you'd know the answer to, if you actually had a Steam Deck. But let me explain, since you obviously don't have all the facts at your disposal.

a) It has two modes, gaming, and desktop. I was talking about desktop.

b) it uses a custom Arch with tons of kernel patches to run its controls. They're not upstreamed yet so you lose a lot of functionality if you replace Steam's OS.

c) I simply want what Wayland on my other computers delivers: much better support for heterogenous multi-monitors.

d) Your xwayland chatter is irrelevant since we're not talking about gaming mode on the deck.

[mdedetrich]

I've used Wayland since Ubuntu 20.04, I dev all the time using a Wayland-based Ubuntu station on a much weaker laptop than the Deck, and it works fine. So I don't know what all the fuss is about as per mdedetrich thinking and your thinking. Actually, Wayland has been a blessing in my multi-monitor, heterogenous-dpi setup after years of pain with X, but then I'm a server-side quant coder and not a graphics-side coder so maybe the latter people have more experience of problems than my close-to-zero problems in the past 18 months (after what was admittedly a bumpy start 2019/20).

So on the top of my head and an issue I experienced a couple of weeks ago with Ubuntu 20.04 (which by default uses Wayland unless you have NVidia GPU which in my case I didn't), screen sharing (ergo VNC) with Wayland is completely broken, i.e.

1. Only one client can connect to the ubuntu VNC session at a time.
2. The protocol is incomplete, i.e. VNC clients that use the automatic resize mode just crash because the Wayland VNC server that Ubuntu uses didn't implement it correctly
3. It randomly crashes (including freezing the machine)
4. It doesnt work if a display is not commected to a GPU which means I had to by a dummy HDMI plug. This can be solved in X11
5. The last and by far the most frustrating one from a usability standpoint, some applications are not network aware. In my case specifically Gnome Terminal wasn't network aware which means that when you typed a single key such as "a" it would trigger 10-15 times on the VNC machine server. The only way around this was to type as slow as a turtle soaked in molasses on a hot summers day.

So when I say that Wayland is not ready, I really do mean it and I have evidence to back it up if you actually want to entertain yourself and go through my post history. X11 may not do the fancy things that Wayland solves (i.e. multi DPI monitor setups) but some basic things have historically been completely borked. Probably the most frustrating one for my company where we use Fedora was the constant issues with video screen sharing/conferencing, not sure if that has been resolved yet since I moved to Manjaro some time ago cause I didn't have time to deal with this.

[Hans Bull]

various new KWin effects

The first thing I would turn off immediately.

[skeevy420]

That's a 16c/32t system with practically double the clock speeds. Not to mention, a much more powerful GPU with its own dedicated VRAM. To use those benchmarks and say there's no overhead is like driving an 18 wheeler and saying there's no impact to its performance when you load it with a fully-assembled desk. Try roof-mounting that desk on a Honda Civic and you're going to notice a difference in the way it drives.

I love that analogy.

[nist]

Does Kget keep downloading any file for the double of its size?
Example: file 100mb -> downloaded 200mb

[schmidtbag]

Second, I said I wanted wayland in Desktop mode. I'm not playing games in desktop mode, so again I don't know why you're rabitting on about gaming on the Pi.

And what exactly is preventing you from running it in desktop mode? I don't know what you're rabbiting about when it's a non-issue. If they somehow managed to lock it out, nothing is preventing you from wiping the OS with your own version of Arch and use Valve's repositories (if there even are any). The fact of the matter is, Wayland should not yet be the default compositor. If that's not what you were suggesting then I really don't get the point of your post.
You're the one who brought up the Pi, for whatever reason.

I've used Wayland since Ubuntu 20.04, I dev all the time using a Wayland-based Ubuntu station on a much weaker laptop than the Deck, and it works fine. So I don't know what all the fuss is about as per mdedetrich thinking and your thinking. Actually, Wayland has been a blessing in my multi-monitor, heterogenous-dpi setup after years of pain with X, but then I'm a server-side coder and not a graphics-side quant coder so maybe the latter people have more experience of problems than my close-to-zero problems in the past 18 months (after what was admittedly a bumpy start 2019/20).

I don't know how to emphasize further that Wayland really excels at certain workloads while isn't [yet] so great in others. While I personally don't get how so many people here apparently have unusably unstable experiences with KDE and/or Wayland, the fact of the matter is, it's common enough that Wayland is not ready for primetime. If it works for you, again: nothing is preventing you from using it. So just turn it on...

[schmidtbag]

IDK man what overheads you are talking about. Xorg and xwayland show basically the same performance.
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...ayland21&num=1

That's a 16c/32t system with practically double the clock speeds. Not to mention, a much more powerful GPU with its own dedicated VRAM. To use those benchmarks and say there's no overhead is like driving an 18 wheeler and saying there's no impact to its performance when you load it with a fully-assembled desk. Try roof-mounting that desk on a Honda Civic and you're going to notice a difference in the way it drives.

In any case, even in that best-case scenario, you'll find there are instances where Wayland was performing significantly worse. So long as that still happens on a gaming device, it isn't worth using.

[Chugworth]

Wayland in its current state is not recommendable because of the issues it has, sorry to burst your bubble but it still has a long way to go. KDE 5.25 may help but that would need to be evaluated.

I recommend it. I have been using it for several versions now, and it works quite well. At this point I think the average user is just as likely to encounter some glitch or imperfection in X as they would in Wayland. And as more focus moves to Wayland, then X will gradually start to become the more flaky and unpolished window system.