Less Than 10% Of Firefox Users On Linux Are Running Wayland

[Guest]

Every Fedora release, I try Wayland out for a bit to see how it goes, but there's always something not-ideal that has me back on Xorg before too long. With the last few Fedora releases, Wayland on GNOME is usable for me no problem, but it's a few 3rd-party programs that act oddly with it. Steam has a known-issue about multiple windows being open and dropping performance on Wayland, and with ckb-next, the auto-light shut-off feature isn't implemented at all on Wayland. And with D2R through Wine, I believe on Wayland I ended up not having a cursor shown, but on Xorg, I had bad tearing (maybe 2 months ago with a RX 580; all testing with the main Fedora version with GNOME).

So for the foreseeable future, Xorg works fine for me and I'll likely continue using it, but I'll keep watch on my other apps to see if they improve on Wayland.

[birdie]

They also offer a suite of default applications, a user interface, a kernel, networking, etc. because they're operating systems and Wayland is not. Win32 was already bizarre thing to compare Wayland and X11, too, and you decided to follow it up with a worse comparison.

1) Whataboutism at its best
2) I was talking specifically about graphics output subsystem

Yes, so do Linux distributions. What is your point? In terms of reference compositor for Wayland, that's Weston. This has been mentioned to you a thousand times.

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/weston

"Weston is the reference implementation of a Wayland compositor, as well as a useful environment in and of itself."

Libweston is just part of Weston.

"Libweston is an effort to separate the re-usable parts of Weston into a library. Libweston provides most of the boring and tedious bits of correctly implementing core Wayland protocols and interfacing with input and output systems, so that people who just want to write a new "Wayland window manager" (WM) or a small desktop environment (DE) can focus on the WM part."

Stop shoving Weston where light doesn't shine. Weston is Weston, it's NOT used by Gnome KDE or anything else. It's a toy for Wayland development, NO ONE uses it for serious work.

Libweston is crap pure and simple. It implements maybe 20% of the features a modern graphics system offers, and of course it does not offer any API for graphics rendering akin to Win32.

It's not even a shared library for f's sake if I'm not mistaken. You have to build it in. "Shared", f me. That's not how "shared" works.

[Myownfriend]

1) Whataboutism at its best

aww birdies trying to playing debate lord with me lol Unfortunately me telling you that you're comparing apples to oranges isn't whataboutism. Whataboutism would be, for example, if someone said that it doesn't make sense for Wayland to have a drawing API and for someone to go "but what about X11" or "but what about Win32" or "but what about MacOS, Windows, and Android."

...oh wait.

2) I was talking specifically about graphics output subsystem

Nah, you were talking about Wayland. See..

What I propose:[LIST][*]Wayland must have a reference universal display server akin to Xorg which could be shared between DEs[*]Wayland should have a decent low level drawing toolkit akin to Win32

Also stop linking to a Git issue of you repeating the exact same thing you're saying in your post. It doesn't add anything to see that you said the same thing in two different places.

Stop shoving Weston where light doesn't shine. Weston is Weston, it's NOT used by Gnome KDE or anything else. It's a toy for Wayland development, NO ONE uses it for serious work.

It doesn't have to be used by every compositor or any compositor. That's not what makes something a reference implementation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_implementation

"In the software development process, a reference implementation (or, less frequently, sample implementation or model implementation) is a program that implements all requirements from a corresponding specification. The reference implementation often accompanies a technical standard, and demonstrates what should be considered the "correct" behavior of any other implementation of it"

That's the function that Weston serves.

"A reference implementation may or may not be production quality. For example, the Fraunhofer reference implementation of the MP3 standard usually does not compare favorably to other common implementations, such as LAME, in listening tests that determine sound quality. In contrast, CPython, the reference implementation of the Python programming language, is also the implementation most widely used in production."

Widespread re-use of that implementation is not necessary. As you've been told a million times, there's nothing about X11 that forces anybody to use X11's reference implementation. It's just something that people have done. Compositor's can use libweston if they want but many don't. That's not an issue. Weston exists so that compositors can check if their behavior is correct.

Libweston is crap pure and simple. It implements maybe 20% of the features a modern graphics system offers, and of course it does not offer any API for graphics rendering akin to Win32.

Again, Wayland does not need to offer any graphics rendering API. OpenGL and Vulkan already exist, they're already widespread, they're already understood, they're cross platform, and they're already competitive with DirectX which is the graphics rendering API in Win32. They're also the same rendering APIs used by Android. Android even uses EGL which is used with Wayland and can be used with X11.

A graphics rendering APi that's unique to Wayland isn't something that anybody is actually asking for except for you and you're only saying it for the sake of argument. It makes zero sense and offers zero benefit.

It's not even a shared library for f's sake if I'm not mistaken. You have to build it in. "Shared", f me. That's not how "shared" works.

Oh, birdie, you're always mistaken :-) I'm assuming someone once told you that looking stuff up would kill you or something. Well they were wrong lol

Same link as before just a little farther down.

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/weston

The Weston project is (will be) intended to be split into several binary packages, each with its own dependencies. The maximal split would be roughly like this:

• libweston (minimal dependencies):
  • headless backend
  • wayland backend
• gl-renderer (depends on GL libs etc.)
• drm-backend (depends on libdrm, libgbm, libudev, libinput, ...)
• x11-backend (depends of X11/xcb libs)
• xwayland (depends on X11/xcb libs)
• fbdev-backend (depends on libudev...)
• rdp-backend (depends on freerdp)
• weston (the executable, not parallel-installable):

...

Everything should be parallel-installable across libweston major ABI-versions (libweston-1.so, libweston-2.so, etc.), except those explicitly mentioned.

Do you know what the ".so" at the end of "libweston-1.so" means?

[mppix]

well, in my case it's hardly functional with zoom or Google meet (even on Intel igp) for example. KDE is at best passable (tons of things are just not working and a lot are... Meh... Like the looks and feel customizations). Even with GBM it is still far from Xorg.

Some KDE folks are conditioned to think that anything sub ideal, it is the fault of some evil force, usually from somewhere in the Gnome camp.
Dont make that mistake. Wayland is fully working in many DEs Including Gnome and Sway. In Gome, Wayland is more stable, performant and with more features than Xorg. It certainly works with Google anything and Zoom.
KDE has now two wayland-enabled compositors: Kwin and KwinFT and both have still issues.

AMD hardly has a competitor to the RTX 3090, but even so: i was indeed ready to buy an RX 6900 XT... I'm still waiting for my AMD notification to buy. Meanwhile I had my RTX for a year now.
And keep in mind that the 2 GPU are not really competitors even if you only consider the graphical capabilities (and I'm not only considering that).

I use my GPUs for compute, where Nvidia has been the only option. So hear you loud and clear.
However, you cannot say that the two cards dont compete. It is much more complicated than that.

In the end it is working yes. But how long are you willing to wait?

Wayland DEs have been working for about 3 years and now. They are now clearly better than xxorg however this may perhaps not be the case for you. Xorg is still there.

[birdie]

Do you know what the ".so" at the end of "libweston-1.so" means?

You just cannot reply without insults? Maybe you could consider that I know ins and outs of Linux a little bit better than the average Joe, having used Linux for a quarter of a century.

And that wonderful list of features? Let's start with something a little bit more serious.

Speaking of your libweston-crap.so:

# dnf whatprovides 'lib*weston*so*'
weston-8.0.0-9.fc35.i686 : Reference compositor for Wayland
Repo        : fedora
Matched from:
Provide    : libexec_weston.so.0

weston-8.0.0-9.fc35.x86_64 : Reference compositor for Wayland
Repo        : fedora
Matched from:
Provide    : libexec_weston.so.0()(64bit)

weston-libs-8.0.0-9.fc35.i686 : Weston compositor libraries
Repo        : fedora
Matched from:
Provide    : libweston-8.so.0
Provide    : libweston-desktop-8.so.0

weston-libs-8.0.0-9.fc35.x86_64 : Weston compositor libraries
Repo        : fedora
Matched from:
Provide    : libweston-8.so.0()(64bit)
Provide    : libweston-desktop-8.so.0()(64bit)

# dnf repoquery --whatrequires weston-libs
weston-0:8.0.0-9.fc35.i686
weston-0:8.0.0-9.fc35.x86_64
weston-devel-0:8.0.0-9.fc35.i686
weston-devel-0:8.0.0-9.fc35.x86_64

Not a single Wayland compositor in Fedora aside from Weston itself uses this shared library. Continue your drivel please which I will ignore from now on.

[Myownfriend]

You just cannot reply without insults?

That's an insult? lol Can you go through one of these threads without acting like you're some poor innocent soul getting bullied? lol

Maybe you could consider that I know ins and outs of Linux a little bit better than the average Joe, having used Linux for a quarter of a century.

Twenty-five years of using Linux and this is were you're at? I wouldn't be bragging if I were you. You're a slow learner.

And that wonderful list of features? Let's start with something a little bit more serious.

Again. Stop posting a link to an issue you started where you said the same dumb shit you say here. It's not adding anything. You creating issues where you're just repeating the same tired, uninformed shit isn't going to improve OSS community and gain your praise. You're not enlightening a bunch of simpleton devs or whipping anybody into shape. You're just an annoying old guy on the internet whose set in his ways and full of himself.

Speaking of your libweston-crap.so:

# dnf whatprovides 'lib*weston*so*'
weston-8.0.0-9.fc35.i686 : Reference compositor for Wayland
Repo : fedora
Matched from:
Provide : libexec_weston.so.0

weston-8.0.0-9.fc35.x86_64 : Reference compositor for Wayland
Repo : fedora
Matched from:
Provide : libexec_weston.so.0()(64bit)

weston-libs-8.0.0-9.fc35.i686 : Weston compositor libraries
Repo : fedora
Matched from:
Provide : libweston-8.so.0
Provide : libweston-desktop-8.so.0

weston-libs-8.0.0-9.fc35.x86_64 : Weston compositor libraries
Repo : fedora
Matched from:
Provide : libweston-8.so.0()(64bit)
Provide : libweston-desktop-8.so.0()(64bit)

# dnf repoquery --whatrequires weston-libs
weston-0:8.0.0-9.fc35.i686
weston-0:8.0.0-9.fc35.x86_64
weston-devel-0:8.0.0-9.fc35.i686
weston-devel-0:8.0.0-9.fc35.x86_64

Not a single Wayland compositor in Fedora aside from Weston itself uses this shared library. Continue your drivel please which I will ignore from now on.

That doesn't matter. A shared library doesn't mean it's being used by everybody, it just means that is can be used by multiple things. That's all. That's the criterion. If someone wants to make a compositor with libweston, they have the ability to because it is a shared library. You know what else is a shared library? Mutter. The only large DE that's using it right now is Gnome but libmutter can be used by others. Same thing with Kwin. That's why XFCE listed libmutter, libweston, wlroots, and kwin as considerations when deciding on what compositor they might adopt. You've seen the link a bunch of times before and you've posted it yourself but here you go. https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap

It's like anything you know about how an operating system works is focused around X11. Its like the only thing about Linux that you ever liked was X11. It's sad.

libweston has been used in embedded use cases:

https://www.collabora.com/news-and-blog/news-and-events/a-libweston-based-compositor-for-automotive-grade-linux.html

https://elinux.org/images/9/93/The-Modern-Linux-Graphics-Stack-on-Embedded-Systems-Michael-Tretter-Pengutronix.pdf

[birdie]

That doesn't matter. A shared library doesn't mean it's being used by everybody, it just means that is can be used by multiple things.

"My own interpretation trumps everything that has been known in the software industry for the past 40 years".

I'm not interested in dealing with people who interpret everything however they see fit. You started with a shared library, now you've swiftly backpedaled just to find a new excuse. God, this is so lame and pathetic. I've caught you red-handed for fuck's sake and instead of admitting it and apologizing you insulted me once again: "You're a slow learner".

Get lost. I won't read any of your insults or poor convoluted pseudo-arguments any longer. Enough with this crap.

[Myownfriend]

"My own interpretation trumps everything that has been known in the software industry for the past 40 years".

I'm not interested in dealing with people who interpret everything however they see fit. You started with a shared library, now you've swiftly backpedaled just to find a new excuse. God, this is so lame and pathetic. I've caught you red-handed for fuck's sake and instead of admitting it and apologizing you insulted me once again: "You're a slow learner".

And I continued talking about shared libraries until the end of the post.

Just posting this here because my post in the other thread is awaiting approval for having a lot of links.

Lets look at what a share object is.

https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19120-01...%20application.

A shared object is an indivisible unit that is generated from one or more relocatable objects. Shared objects can be bound with dynamic executables to form a runable process. As their name implies, shared objects can be shared by more than one application.

https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/267976/it-is-vs-it-can-be

'is' would depict it is always present...

'can be' would depict possibility.

[t.s.]

Ok, that's cool but you know what - most mid and high end discrete GPUs ship with 3 or 4 display outputs. Most docks ship with 3+ display outputs. There must be some reason for this. Most offices I've worked in had docks and external displays. A single external monitor already makes it a two display workstation. Sure, a 12" notebook screen might support 1080p or 4k, but work ergonomics seem to improve quite a bit with the help of external 27+ inch displays. I've never understood how some guys manage to do 8-10 hours of development work each day, staring at tiny integrated 12" ultrabook screens, without developing any kind of neck / back pain.

GPU having 3-4 display output doesn't necessary mean that the user that buy it will use that much monitor. I've been using laptop with docking myself. But very rarely using all (2) monitor simultaneously. Usually just using the external monitor via docking (former latitude e6440).

[Natrox]

I'm rooting for Wayland, I really do think it's the way forward but... circumstances don't allow me to switch yet.

I used an Nvidia card, basic Wayland stuff + xwayland works, but if I run any wine/Proton games they run terribly. Generally, it's issues like these that prevent uses from switching.

I don't particularly attribute these issues to Wayland itself, more so to just simply the fact of the matter that it's replacing a pretty universal system (X server). It takes time to get everyone and everything on-board, it'd be silly to expect a smooth transition. It's nobody's fault really, just the reality of switching out core systems. xwayland exists as a stop-gap, a necessary one to encourage people to use Wayland at all - not having it would fracture the desktop environments.

Again, it's kind of what you would expect. 10% is actually quite high for something like this. Remember stuff like O_PONIES? It's hard to get everyone on the same line, if not impossible. It's nonsensical to try and be a Wayland evangelist or X evangelist for that matter - ultimately the end user just wants stuff to work without much annoyance, and devs want a nice API. When both camps are completely satisfied, we'll go from 10% to 50% to 80%. It might take a while, but it really doesn't matter. Use what works for you, that's the nice thing about Linux; you've got so much choice.