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XWayland 21.1 Release Candidate Offers Split From The X.Org Server

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  • #81
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Point 1 for you have the problem that you have applications that do in fact need to draw their own. Wine to run particular applications has to draw their own decorations or its not going to work under X11 this will be true under Wayland as well.
    If security is a high concern, it's perfectly valid to force SSD and say "if an application like WinAMP refuses to call the OS-provieded windeco function that is being made into a no-op, then that's its own fault for getting double windeco. My complaint is the encouragement of making that the norm, rather than a niche case.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Existing implementations of SSD on Windows X11 and Mac OS are all broken from a security point of view because you cannot tell what is SSD and what is CSD this is very important.
    Windows and macOS don't use SSD last I checked. They use an analogue to libdecoration provided by the base platform.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    There is another side to CSD you miss that relates to data secruity. You do want applications at time to be able to resist the kill button on windows boarder. Think about it WM/compositor sees that you have sent kill to application and it decides its waiting long enough and kills it this may be too early. There is more than one right choice how long should you wait for a kill to process. So some applications having SSD for timed kill and CSD for as long as application takes todo the kill could be a great feature.
    KDE has done this fine with SSD since before I came to Linux in 2002. You click the close button on the SSD, it sends a signal to the application, and, if the application is hung and doesn't respond within X seconds, you get a "Kill/Wait Longer" dialog.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    SSD done for security should have supported cropping always.
    Maybe, but I don't approve of applications making cropping necessary for non-security applications where the user just wants to force a consistent window management workflow on all applications.

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    • #82
      Originally posted by duby229 View Post

      That's bullshit.... Consistent look and feel was solved at least 15 years ago. It was Gnome that intentionally broke it.
      That's a completely re-tarded thing to say. Gnome updated its UI to be from this century while legacy desktops such as KDE failed to follow suit.

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      • #83
        Originally posted by ssokolow View Post
        Plus, SSD gives a desktop the ability to have trusted chrome elements on each window, which you'd think would fit with the "Security!" arguments for why Wayland is the way it is.
        There is no security when you execute untrusted programs. The argument that "trusted chrome elements" somehow matter is invalid.

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        • #84
          Originally posted by curfew View Post
          That's a completely re-tarded thing to say. Gnome updated its UI to be from this century while legacy desktops such as KDE failed to follow suit.
          And yet Gnome looks and feels far worse than it ever has... Oxymoron much? Plasma is the best looking and feeling DE in existence right now.

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          • #85
            Originally posted by curfew View Post
            There is no security when you execute untrusted programs. The argument that "trusted chrome elements" somehow matter is invalid.
            A Wayland app can pretend to have a privileged dialog box like a password entry box hovering over it if it is able to fake the system windeco, or hijack the function of windeco, such as producing a close or minimize button that appears to do so but actually uses shaped window calls to give the impression that there was a smaller, more privileged window hiding behind it.

            Trusted chrome elements are part of a toolbox of elements for making it harder for applications to impersonate each other.

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            • #86
              Originally posted by Shiba View Post

              I don't care if it's optional or not, this looks like sh*t and unless you intentionally plan to develop a desktop that looks like sh*t it is a big blocker ↓
              I don't see why the hell that should be a problem. A desktop environment's role is to launch graphical applications windows and display notifications. How windows looks doesn't even compare to a fart in the grand scheme of getting things done with a computer.

              Typical case of missing the forest for the trees.

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              • #87
                Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                Not in a Plasma X11 session. Theming is a disaster because -GNOME- keeps breaking it.
                Its not just gnome. Please take note that QT/KDE theming format is also not set in stone. Same with all the other toolkits.

                Its a very broad mess.

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                • #88
                  Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                  Its not just gnome. Please take note that QT/KDE theming format is also not set in stone. Same with all the other toolkits.

                  Its a very broad mess.
                  In what sense? Regarding Qt it's actually very straightforward: themes are implemented by programming; basically you have to roll your own complete "theme engine" in order to create a new theme. That's for the classic widgets. QML-based widgets have their own theming logic separate from classic widgets.
                  Last edited by curfew; 19 February 2021, 11:59 PM.

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                  • #89
                    Originally posted by ssokolow View Post
                    A Wayland app can pretend to have a privileged dialog box like a password entry box hovering over it if it is able to fake the system windeco, or hijack the function of windeco, such as producing a close or minimize button that appears to do so but actually uses shaped window calls to give the impression that there was a smaller, more privileged window hiding behind it.
                    Now you're shifting goal posts from your own arguments, haha. Password dialogs have nothing to do with window borders, which was your original argument.

                    Stop being a re-tard, stop executing untrusted apps!

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                    • #90
                      Originally posted by curfew View Post
                      In what sense? Regarding Qt it's actually very straightforward: themes are implemented by programming; basically you have to roll your own complete "theme engine" in order to create a new theme. That's for the classic widgets. QML-based widgets have their own theming logic separate from classic widgets.
                      Curfew is that straight forwards to make your own theme engine? No its not. Classic widgets with new versions of Qt things do change resulting in old Qt themes not working with new versions of Qt.

                      Having to code your own theming engine is not really useful if your objective is unified theming across the complete desktop. So you have to code a theme for Qt then for GTK then for Wxwidgets..... Then deal with the breakages caused by updates. End up with the nightmares where you have new and old applications using different versions of the toolkit that need different versions of the theme file.

                      I have done the horrible job of trying to get unified appearing on Linux desktop is really not fun.

                      https://stopthemingmy.app/
                      This from gnome developers where really powerful theme systems result in applications being not able to be used by end users also applies to Qt theming.

                      Lot of ways we need some form of really simple theme solution that application and end users can use without risking ruining their day. This would also require some smarts on mandated contrast differences between different elements.

                      Horrible as it sounds there is such thing as over kill. Most toolkits on Linux the theming system is over kill. Most users will only want to adjust a few colours to suit their vision better and be wanting consistency in appearance.

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