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Taiwins Wayland Compositor Switches From WLROOTS To Its Own Library

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  • #41
    Originally posted by wizard69 View Post

    i'm glad you quote "pros" there. I really see this as the biggest weakness of linux and open source in general. It isn't that options are bad, the problem is that if you have too many developer skill gets spread too thin. This is why the kernel development has worked out so well, we don't have dozens of competing kernels being worked on. Kernel developers are only focused really on two paths linux and bsd. Contrast that with gui support, i don't even think i can count all of the options for x and wayland as i'd certainly would leave out one or more.
    finally someone speak the truth

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    • #42
      Originally posted by pieman View Post

      at the moment, me, with a 3090 fe.
      Full agree with pieman and birdie, Nvidia is far more relevant to Linux these days than AMD/ATI. Nvidia has CUDA, AMD has Roc-M that might some day be useful, but the reality is that Nvidia has 99% of the GPU high performance compute and AMD still cant even find the table to show up at.

      Nvidia will continue to support Linux and develop awesome drivers for it. I have my Gigabyte 3090 running happily on Pop_OS these days with KDE. Except for when I need VR and top quality gaming, it works just fine. X11 works just fine... Wayland need not apply to any actual use case. Some day Wayland will likely replace X11, but it need not be today. When Wayland does replace X11 it will have full Nvidia support... because quite simply it wont replace X11 until it does... end of story.

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      • #43
        Originally posted by birdie View Post

        Most 32 bit applications for windows 95 work just fine in Windows 10 in 2021, end of story. Microsoft unlike idiot open source fan-atics understands the value of backward compatibility. Your counterargument is crap (because it proves you wrong) only you fail to realize that.
        I was talking about broken consistency since Windows 8 when Microsoft started to migrate Windows GUI to Modern UI but 9 years later it's still unfinished. With Windows 10 it became even worse because new styles was introduces (Fluent Desing) but not all Modern apps are using it. Yeah, indeed very professional. Also Linux userspace API is also backwards compatible. Linus Torvalds also understand the value of backwards compatibility. Windows backwards compatibility is also not something that Microsoft loves. It makes Windows bloated and makes adding new features difficult. It's only maintained because it's actually main reason of Windows market share.

        You didn't even answer my post. I was talking about consistency, you started talking about backwards compatibility. Completely unrelated things. If you want to prove my arguments are "crap" then start explaining why they are wrong instead of talking about something completely unrelated and claiming you have won.
        Last edited by dragon321; 31 January 2021, 09:12 PM.

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        • #44
          Originally posted by zexelon View Post
          Nvidia will continue to support Linux and develop awesome drivers for it. I have my Gigabyte 3090 running happily on Pop_OS these days with KDE. Except for when I need VR and top quality gaming, it works just fine. X11 works just fine... Wayland need not apply to any actual use case. Some day Wayland will likely replace X11, but it need not be today. When Wayland does replace X11 it will have full Nvidia support... because quite simply it wont replace X11 until it does... end of story.
          Really less mainline kernel developers using Nvidia GPU. More cases of breakages to the Nvidia drivers coming down the pipeline. Your so call awesome drivers are going to have increasing reliability problems.

          Also bare metal X11 is not going to get any new features. So HDR monitors are not going to be supported by bare metal X11. There is going to come a point where you will not be able to buy a monitor that is X11 compadible on bare metal. If nvidia does not have it drivers sorted out by then you are just going to have to buy AMD/Intel.

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          • #45
            Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

            Really less mainline kernel developers using Nvidia GPU. More cases of breakages to the Nvidia drivers coming down the pipeline. Your so call awesome drivers are going to have increasing reliability problems.

            Also bare metal X11 is not going to get any new features. So HDR monitors are not going to be supported by bare metal X11. There is going to come a point where you will not be able to buy a monitor that is X11 compadible on bare metal. If nvidia does not have it drivers sorted out by then you are just going to have to buy AMD/Intel.
            Actually I still wont have to buy AMD or Intel then either... I will just have to switch to Windows... or maybe BSD. There is no actual reason to stick to Linux. The actual work I need Linux for (A.I. development) can happen happily on headless servers.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by birdie View Post
              Sigh, 12 years in, we are still talking about the core protocol/graphics features ... Might have to do something with how the hole thing was misdesigned in the first place.
              Yeah, that’s the main problem. Display programming has tons of edge cases and needs experts with experience handling all the weird nits to make something that works correctly. Wayland doesn’t provide a whole lot over a plain framebuffer—everything has to be done by the “compositor.”

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              • #47
                Originally posted by zexelon View Post
                Actually I still wont have to buy AMD or Intel then either... I will just have to switch to Windows... or maybe BSD. There is no actual reason to stick to Linux. The actual work I need Linux for (A.I. development) can happen happily on headless servers.
                BSD is the same x.org X11 server. BSD bare metal end of life of x.org X11 server is coming at the exact same time as Linux. Hope you enjoy windows.

                BSD graphical stack comes from Linux so there is a joint down stream effect here. Linux kernel developers not testing the Linux graphic stack with Nvidia stuff the result is the BSD stuff will also come less dependable because they are the downstream.

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

                  BSD is the same x.org X11 server. BSD bare metal end of life of x.org X11 server is coming at the exact same time as Linux. Hope you enjoy windows.

                  BSD graphical stack comes from Linux so there is a joint down stream effect here. Linux kernel developers not testing the Linux graphic stack with Nvidia stuff the result is the BSD stuff will also come less dependable because they are the downstream.
                  Moved my dual Xeon workstation to Windows 10 seven days ago. USB WiFi performance is at least double that of Linux on the same hardware, and doesn't suddenly freeze or stall. My GT 610 and GT 1030 work marvelously, proprietary drivers continue working even after several Windows updates unlike Linux where a single kernel update breaks them. Any Tom, Dick or harry hardware I buy from any computer store or taobao will be guaranteed to have Windows drivers available; I can buy just about any 802.11ac WiFi USB adapter and plug them into Windows and use them directly, unlike in Linux where the only USB 802.11ac WiFi hardware with in-kernel drivers available are Mediatek 761Xu chipsets.

                  Powershell cmdlets and Windows commands for various utilities are needlessly complex but are very human readable, unlike LInux and Unix commands.

                  Special buttons on my Logitech Craft and Microsoft Ergonomic keyboards work right out of the box, unlike in Linux where no amount of configuration will make them launch what I want them to launch. built-in integration with Onedrive means I never have to use a web browser for managing stuff in my Onedrive. I don't get random XWayland crashes that will dump my Plasma Wayaland or Gnome Wayland session back into a TTY.

                  Am I enjoying Windows? After these 7 days, I sure am. Life is too short to put up with all the issues on Linux. The only things I miss from Linux are the ability to create ramdisks, the ability to configure transient static IP addresses on the NICs, and the ability to use environment variables like LD_LIBRARY_PATH (and LIBRARY_PATH, C_INCLUDE_PATH, CFLAGS and CXXFLAGS for building applications).
                  Last edited by Sonadow; 01 February 2021, 12:30 AM.

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                  • #49
                    Sonadow Unfortunately the reality is that Linux desktop usage will allways be left to a fringe group. In its top usage scenarios it runs headless (even with GPUs for compute). It is an OS that tends to be purpose used not generally usable.

                    By and large it has become much more usable, but for all the reasons you have mentioned above and the nature of its community it will never be a usable system as a desktop. Microsoft is actually making the most solid strides towards desktop Linux with its WSL2 system. I tend to use that now more than Linux anyway... I dont need a GPL religion when all I want to do is get things done

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Girolamo_Cavazzoni View Post

                      Sorry dude, you got it all wrong. With X11 you have a window manager, a compositor (which are not necessarily the same piece of software) AND the X.org server which by the way does nothing than routing from and to the former two, adding latency.

                      With wayland you just have one piece which does it all. And you can even choose: Curvy with love handles (mutter) or lean and light (sway/wlroots) or something entirely different (add compositor here).
                      Really? One piece which does it all? We have too much pieces that do-it-half (implement features as they see fit or not complete because they lack manpower to implement the feature in their WM). What we should do is focus our energy to create just one wayland + compositor. The foundation should create say, weston (wayland+compositor) with good documentation + api + modular. So all WM can just use the API. Easy and Simple.

                      Question: Could you enlighten me how to remote desktop client that use GNOME-only desktop when you use Plasma-only Desktop with myriad of wayland as of now?

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