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There's Finally An Experimental Driver For Native Wayland Support Within Wine

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  • dragon321
    replied
    Originally posted by duby229 View Post
    It was definitely designed initially with the scope being for kiosks or other single purpose interfaces for sure... It may have changed since then but they have been stuck with the scope it was intended initially for ever since then. Meanwhile it's 13 years later and it still has to be extended further...
    It was started as X11 replacement for desktop Linux. X11 replacement obviously needs to cover desktop because how many non desktop OSes backed by X11 do you know? The fact it's working differently and not implementing every X11 feature doesn't mean it's not designed for desktop. Wayland started in 2007, why it should follow 80's design?

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
    I have not contradicted myself, but simply not having an Nvidia I don't know the problem, I can't talk about things I don't know! What I can't get you to understand is that I never said Wayland isn't stable, I just wrote that it's not ready for all use cases yet! For example, assuming I would be willing to leave Plasma to use Gnome, I would not be able to do it anyway because I would be very limited in my memory. I'm telling you this because I'm trying it, on Tumbleweed where everything is updated to the latest version. Of course I can't use it with Xorg either! But under Xorg I have a lot of great alternative DE choices, which still don't fully support Wayland. Keep in mind that my pc has 4Gb of ram, but there are also many pc with 2 Gb of ram out there. This has nothing to do with wayland directly, but if Wayland's only option is Gnome, that's a limitation, for now, hopefully more DEs will be ready soon.
    The fixes coming to gnome and kde are reducing the base memory requirements. You cannot use gnome that is right but future versions this is going to change for quite a few users. It all since they have started having sysprof able to run on the shell parts so pointing to where gnome has been leaking massiving in memory usage.

    The reality is KDE and Gnome are on path to match in time the memory usage of a lightweight wm and X.org server. Its not like X.org X11 server has been exactly light or leak free.

    Basically we have had a stack of broken and things are going to look a lot different once its all finally fixed. It took over a decade to make the code a mess its taking a while to clean it up.



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  • Charlie68
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Gnome is getting a lot of memory fixes. Reality even under X11 its leaking massively. Running as a Wayland compositor just made areas that were leaking memory leak faster.
    I have not contradicted myself, but simply not having an Nvidia I don't know the problem, I can't talk about things I don't know! What I can't get you to understand is that I never said Wayland isn't stable, I just wrote that it's not ready for all use cases yet! For example, assuming I would be willing to leave Plasma to use Gnome, I would not be able to do it anyway because I would be very limited in my memory. I'm telling you this because I'm trying it, on Tumbleweed where everything is updated to the latest version. Of course I can't use it with Xorg either! But under Xorg I have a lot of great alternative DE choices, which still don't fully support Wayland. Keep in mind that my pc has 4Gb of ram, but there are also many pc with 2 Gb of ram out there. This has nothing to do with wayland directly, but if Wayland's only option is Gnome, that's a limitation, for now, hopefully more DEs will be ready soon.
    Last edited by Charlie68; 17 December 2020, 03:25 PM.

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
    Just to understand, I don't have any hardware with Nvidia and I'm referring to the tests on my desktop with Gnome Shell (Tumbleweed) which ships it by default.
    As I wrote, I'm a Wayland enthusiast and for most use cases with Gnome it's fine. But Gnu / linux is a more complex world than that, I can't stably run Gnome on my desktop pc, as with my 4Gb of ram I don't go anywhere on Gnome. Like me I believe there are still a lot of users, so personally I am not in a hurry, when it will be fully usable on a decent DE that I can use without saturating the ram by opening three browser tabs, I will switch to Wayland, but claim that at this time Wayland can replace Xorg in all use cases, it's a stretch.
    Gnome is getting a lot of memory fixes. Reality even under X11 its leaking massively. Running as a Wayland compositor just made areas that were leaking memory leak faster.

    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
    You do realize you just contradicted yourself? Also I just had a look at the protocol and its not supporting what you are saying at all so yeah I am still calling BS, I would like to see discussions at the time specifically saying "NVidia and only Nvidia are blocking us"
    It was blocked by lack of information out Nvidia on being finalised. No I did not contradict self. What you said about wayland not containing clipboard when first release was true if you only looked at the stable parts not the complete thing. But why it was not in stable at that time was failure on Nvidia side to provide answers. This has happened quite a few times leading to lots of stalls until the maintainer of the extension has fairly much gone stuff Nvidia and implemented it anyhow. Of course while parts are not stable upstreams does not have to implement them all.

    The wayland clipboard delay on coming part of stable wayland protocol is Nvidia fault. It was a bad one to raise as a idea of making a point.

    Please note X11 clipboard is a mess of incompatible implementations that mostly works by people implementing lots and lots of quirks/hacks to work around it defects.

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  • mdedetrich
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

    This does lead back to the DMA-BUF not GBM as such. Security in mind also was covering how to transfer the items. This required looking at the lower frameworks that would be on offer.


    This is also completely untrue.
    https://wayland.freedesktop.org/docs...l-data-sharing

    This stuff for clipboard was in the unstable sections of the protocol of wayland mainline from day one. Why it was in unstable was debate over how particular things would be done this also included if DMA-BUF would be allowed. Option 3 was chosen on clipboard as in ignore Nvidia.

    The first version of Weston had clipboard support as well. The issue do come how to glue newer wayland clipboard to the X11 clipboard mess.
    You do realize you just contradicted yourself? Also I just had a look at the protocol and its not supporting what you are saying at all so yeah I am still calling BS, I would like to see discussions at the time specifically saying "NVidia and only Nvidia are blocking us"

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  • Charlie68
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    This is related to less users. The slower migration caused by lack of Nvidia support.


    The reality here is Xwayland on Weston you will see in all cases is lighter than bar metal X11 server if you are on AMD and Intel. Not all wayland compositors are created equal in their handing of X11 clients at this stage. Also if you are on a Nvidia card items like GTK2 and Qt4 do using opengl so this causes a software render to fire up that is not light on Xwayland this causes those with Nvidia running old applications to go this eat more resources when the problem is really nvidia lack of support..
    Just to understand, I don't have any hardware with Nvidia and I'm referring to the tests on my desktop with Gnome Shell (Tumbleweed) which ships it by default.
    As I wrote, I'm a Wayland enthusiast and for most use cases with Gnome it's fine. But Gnu / linux is a more complex world than that, I can't stably run Gnome on my desktop pc, as with my 4Gb of ram I don't go anywhere on Gnome. Like me I believe there are still a lot of users, so personally I am not in a hurry, when it will be fully usable on a decent DE that I can use without saturating the ram by opening three browser tabs, I will switch to Wayland, but claim that at this time Wayland can replace Xorg in all use cases, it's a stretch.

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
    2. There was an unofficial extension that wasn't merged because it was unclear on how to best approach the problem with security in mind (i.e. it had nothing to do with NVidia).
    This does lead back to the DMA-BUF not GBM as such. Security in mind also was covering how to transfer the items. This required looking at the lower frameworks that would be on offer.

    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
    1. Wayland was released without support at all
    This is also completely untrue.
    https://wayland.freedesktop.org/docs...l-data-sharing

    This stuff for clipboard was in the unstable sections of the protocol of wayland mainline from day one. Why it was in unstable was debate over how particular things would be done this also included if DMA-BUF would be allowed. Option 3 was chosen on clipboard as in ignore Nvidia.

    The first version of Weston had clipboard support as well. The issue do come how to glue newer wayland clipboard to the X11 clipboard mess.

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  • mdedetrich
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

    This si where you are wrong. Clipboard buffers is one of the things that was in fact stalled by Nvidia messing around with different allocation crap. Thinking about some one select a section of screen and wants to copy it to clipboard. Would it not be great to use video card buffer in some form. Like remember at this point Nvidia only now starting to agree to use DMA-BUF as in file handles for this stuff.

    Like it or not Nvidia is a foundation piece. This a key stone problem. You cannot write the clipboard extension and finalise it until one of the following happens.
    1) Nvidia finalises how they are going todo things and in fact publishes in its final form.
    2) Nvidia agrees to-do everything the same as every else.
    3) everyone goes stuff Nvidia. Everyone else has agreed on the foundation bits lets just build for the foundation we know
    This is flat out wrong, at least if we are talking about clipboard problem it has nothing to do with NVidia. Wayland is just a protocol, it doesn't care about whether a client (i.e. compositor/desktop) is using NVidia or AMD or Intel, Waylands whole job is to abstract away from GBM, you are conflating GBM with Wayland here.

    I remember the discussions at the time, the reason why we were in this situation is that

    1. Wayland was released without support at all
    2. There was an unofficial extension that wasn't merged because it was unclear on how to best approach the problem with security in mind (i.e. it had nothing to do with NVidia).

    Again please just stop doing this shit, its pathetic. The whole development/management process of Wayland has as much to blame (if not more) than NVidia.
    Last edited by mdedetrich; 17 December 2020, 07:22 AM.

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
    Because you want to run applications that depend on them?
    Yeah I use a keylogger all the time, it's called AutoHotkey. I like automating my workflow. Something too complicated for you to do, since you prefer manual labor.

    How about don't fucking use it if you don't like it? Too complicated and gotta double click everything? Idiot.
    Weasel you just made same kind of arguement as the person who made the first car and became the first person forbid to drive. Yes our modern cars don't controls like the first one because they were totally unsafe but the same basic functionality is there done a different way. Breaks on the first car was not a foot peddle but a screw driven turn in knob that you had to turn 20 times to get to breaks fully on. Yes he made the arguement in court that turning a wheel for breaks made more sense than the foot peddle that had been used on horse and cart for years leading to him being forbid from driving anything.

    There is a different between what you need and what you want. There are things like AutoHotkey that need to go back to the drawing board to be implemented in ways that they are getting permission to mess with applications instead of getting the right to mess with any application then deciding what ones they do. Really AutoHotkey is like the first car totally unsafe design so someone does need to sit down and come up with a safe design.

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
    I have no idea what in the world you are smoking when you are trying to justify that most of the issues are with NVidia when the Wayland protocol was released without so many features (i.e. clipboard buffers) which has nothing to do with NVidia (plus the fact we were in this pathetic spot for like 6 years?).
    This si where you are wrong. Clipboard buffers is one of the things that was in fact stalled by Nvidia messing around with different allocation crap. Thinking about some one select a section of screen and wants to copy it to clipboard. Would it not be great to use video card buffer in some form. Like remember at this point Nvidia only now starting to agree to use DMA-BUF as in file handles for this stuff.

    Like it or not Nvidia is a foundation piece. This a key stone problem. You cannot write the clipboard extension and finalise it until one of the following happens.
    1) Nvidia finalises how they are going todo things and in fact publishes in its final form.
    2) Nvidia agrees to-do everything the same as every else.
    3) everyone goes stuff Nvidia. Everyone else has agreed on the foundation bits lets just build for the foundation we know.

    Yes there are quite few wayland extentions sitting in unstable that cannot go stable with wayland protocal until one of those 3 happen.

    Please note Nvidia cannot finalise what they have now with eglstreams because its broken and does not in fact work for a use case of a display compositor. So by your statements Nvidia cannot make something good enough for ATM so much for the multi billion dollar company they are.

    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
    Proton already does this with X11 and the fullscreen hack.
    Valve start development gamescope because that has some serous flaws.

    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
    Can you get a clue already?
    https://www.winehq.org/pipermail/win...er/178602.html

    No its about time you get a clue. The reality the developer is going to look into every one of those limitation claims why wine could not be on Wayland and see if they are truly a show stopper or just something that has to be done differently to get same effect.

    This process is going to shorting the list or reasons against Wayland a lot.


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