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There's Finally An Experimental Driver For Native Wayland Support Within Wine

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  • #61
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

    Really you did not want to go there. There has been a lot more management stalls caused by Nvidia with wayland. The reality is if Nvidia not the dominate card things would have progressed way faster.

    https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...he-Alloc-Going

    Lot of things stalled waiting for Nvidia to get this stuff going then Nvidia has basically never delivered. If Nvidia had been minor vendor they would have just been ignored.

    Management of Wayland is partly to blame but lot of the stalls have been caused by Nvidia promising things so developers of Wayland deciding to wait before locking in the extensions to wayland in case something in what Nvidia does does not work. Then Nvidia has failed to deliver. Just like Xwayland failure to deliver from Nvidia.

    Reality there is hell load about the current wayland mess that is pure Nvidia jerking everyone around.
    I have no idea what in the world you are smoking when you are trying to justify that most of the issues are with NVidia when the Wayland protocol was released without so many features (i.e. clipboard buffers) which has nothing to do with NVidia (plus the fact we were in this pathetic spot for like 6 years?). The initial Wayland protocol was probably adequate for an ATM machine and that's it....

    Just stop blaming NVidia for everything, its getting more and more ridiculous as time goes on (next you are going to be saying that NVidia is the cause of cancer....)
    Last edited by mdedetrich; 16 December 2020, 06:58 PM.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
      This is on the incorrect presume that you could implement Windows API on top of X11 correctly. Wine has had virtual desktop and render windows boarders itself options because the reality is you cannot do all with X11 either.

      Hidpi monitors people wanting to run old programs want to be able to scale applications up so lie to application that is has 800x600 screen an scale it up wayland version of wine will be able to use gamescope from valve to-do this.
      Proton already does this with X11 and the fullscreen hack.

      Can you get a clue already? https://www.winehq.org/pipermail/win...er/178608.html

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      • #63
        Originally posted by zxy_thf View Post
        What's the point of properly implementing those insecure-by-design WIndows API?
        Because you want to run applications that depend on them?
        Originally posted by zxy_thf View Post
        Just because you wanna fuck up with everyone's Linux box with a single universal keylogger.exe?
        Yeah I use a keylogger all the time, it's called AutoHotkey. I like automating my workflow. Something too complicated for you to do, since you prefer manual labor.

        How about don't fucking use it if you don't like it? Too complicated and gotta double click everything? Idiot.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
          I have no idea what in the world you are smoking when you are trying to justify that most of the issues are with NVidia when the Wayland protocol was released without so many features (i.e. clipboard buffers) which has nothing to do with NVidia (plus the fact we were in this pathetic spot for like 6 years?).
          This si where you are wrong. Clipboard buffers is one of the things that was in fact stalled by Nvidia messing around with different allocation crap. Thinking about some one select a section of screen and wants to copy it to clipboard. Would it not be great to use video card buffer in some form. Like remember at this point Nvidia only now starting to agree to use DMA-BUF as in file handles for this stuff.

          Like it or not Nvidia is a foundation piece. This a key stone problem. You cannot write the clipboard extension and finalise it until one of the following happens.
          1) Nvidia finalises how they are going todo things and in fact publishes in its final form.
          2) Nvidia agrees to-do everything the same as every else.
          3) everyone goes stuff Nvidia. Everyone else has agreed on the foundation bits lets just build for the foundation we know.

          Yes there are quite few wayland extentions sitting in unstable that cannot go stable with wayland protocal until one of those 3 happen.

          Please note Nvidia cannot finalise what they have now with eglstreams because its broken and does not in fact work for a use case of a display compositor. So by your statements Nvidia cannot make something good enough for ATM so much for the multi billion dollar company they are.

          Originally posted by Weasel View Post
          Proton already does this with X11 and the fullscreen hack.
          Valve start development gamescope because that has some serous flaws.

          Originally posted by Weasel View Post
          Can you get a clue already?
          https://www.winehq.org/pipermail/win...er/178602.html

          No its about time you get a clue. The reality the developer is going to look into every one of those limitation claims why wine could not be on Wayland and see if they are truly a show stopper or just something that has to be done differently to get same effect.

          This process is going to shorting the list or reasons against Wayland a lot.


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          • #65
            Originally posted by Weasel View Post
            Because you want to run applications that depend on them?
            Yeah I use a keylogger all the time, it's called AutoHotkey. I like automating my workflow. Something too complicated for you to do, since you prefer manual labor.

            How about don't fucking use it if you don't like it? Too complicated and gotta double click everything? Idiot.
            Weasel you just made same kind of arguement as the person who made the first car and became the first person forbid to drive. Yes our modern cars don't controls like the first one because they were totally unsafe but the same basic functionality is there done a different way. Breaks on the first car was not a foot peddle but a screw driven turn in knob that you had to turn 20 times to get to breaks fully on. Yes he made the arguement in court that turning a wheel for breaks made more sense than the foot peddle that had been used on horse and cart for years leading to him being forbid from driving anything.

            There is a different between what you need and what you want. There are things like AutoHotkey that need to go back to the drawing board to be implemented in ways that they are getting permission to mess with applications instead of getting the right to mess with any application then deciding what ones they do. Really AutoHotkey is like the first car totally unsafe design so someone does need to sit down and come up with a safe design.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

              This si where you are wrong. Clipboard buffers is one of the things that was in fact stalled by Nvidia messing around with different allocation crap. Thinking about some one select a section of screen and wants to copy it to clipboard. Would it not be great to use video card buffer in some form. Like remember at this point Nvidia only now starting to agree to use DMA-BUF as in file handles for this stuff.

              Like it or not Nvidia is a foundation piece. This a key stone problem. You cannot write the clipboard extension and finalise it until one of the following happens.
              1) Nvidia finalises how they are going todo things and in fact publishes in its final form.
              2) Nvidia agrees to-do everything the same as every else.
              3) everyone goes stuff Nvidia. Everyone else has agreed on the foundation bits lets just build for the foundation we know
              This is flat out wrong, at least if we are talking about clipboard problem it has nothing to do with NVidia. Wayland is just a protocol, it doesn't care about whether a client (i.e. compositor/desktop) is using NVidia or AMD or Intel, Waylands whole job is to abstract away from GBM, you are conflating GBM with Wayland here.

              I remember the discussions at the time, the reason why we were in this situation is that

              1. Wayland was released without support at all
              2. There was an unofficial extension that wasn't merged because it was unclear on how to best approach the problem with security in mind (i.e. it had nothing to do with NVidia).

              Again please just stop doing this shit, its pathetic. The whole development/management process of Wayland has as much to blame (if not more) than NVidia.
              Last edited by mdedetrich; 17 December 2020, 07:22 AM.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
                2. There was an unofficial extension that wasn't merged because it was unclear on how to best approach the problem with security in mind (i.e. it had nothing to do with NVidia).
                This does lead back to the DMA-BUF not GBM as such. Security in mind also was covering how to transfer the items. This required looking at the lower frameworks that would be on offer.

                Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
                1. Wayland was released without support at all
                This is also completely untrue.
                https://wayland.freedesktop.org/docs...l-data-sharing

                This stuff for clipboard was in the unstable sections of the protocol of wayland mainline from day one. Why it was in unstable was debate over how particular things would be done this also included if DMA-BUF would be allowed. Option 3 was chosen on clipboard as in ignore Nvidia.

                The first version of Weston had clipboard support as well. The issue do come how to glue newer wayland clipboard to the X11 clipboard mess.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                  This is related to less users. The slower migration caused by lack of Nvidia support.


                  The reality here is Xwayland on Weston you will see in all cases is lighter than bar metal X11 server if you are on AMD and Intel. Not all wayland compositors are created equal in their handing of X11 clients at this stage. Also if you are on a Nvidia card items like GTK2 and Qt4 do using opengl so this causes a software render to fire up that is not light on Xwayland this causes those with Nvidia running old applications to go this eat more resources when the problem is really nvidia lack of support..
                  Just to understand, I don't have any hardware with Nvidia and I'm referring to the tests on my desktop with Gnome Shell (Tumbleweed) which ships it by default.
                  As I wrote, I'm a Wayland enthusiast and for most use cases with Gnome it's fine. But Gnu / linux is a more complex world than that, I can't stably run Gnome on my desktop pc, as with my 4Gb of ram I don't go anywhere on Gnome. Like me I believe there are still a lot of users, so personally I am not in a hurry, when it will be fully usable on a decent DE that I can use without saturating the ram by opening three browser tabs, I will switch to Wayland, but claim that at this time Wayland can replace Xorg in all use cases, it's a stretch.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

                    This does lead back to the DMA-BUF not GBM as such. Security in mind also was covering how to transfer the items. This required looking at the lower frameworks that would be on offer.


                    This is also completely untrue.
                    https://wayland.freedesktop.org/docs...l-data-sharing

                    This stuff for clipboard was in the unstable sections of the protocol of wayland mainline from day one. Why it was in unstable was debate over how particular things would be done this also included if DMA-BUF would be allowed. Option 3 was chosen on clipboard as in ignore Nvidia.

                    The first version of Weston had clipboard support as well. The issue do come how to glue newer wayland clipboard to the X11 clipboard mess.
                    You do realize you just contradicted yourself? Also I just had a look at the protocol and its not supporting what you are saying at all so yeah I am still calling BS, I would like to see discussions at the time specifically saying "NVidia and only Nvidia are blocking us"

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post
                      Just to understand, I don't have any hardware with Nvidia and I'm referring to the tests on my desktop with Gnome Shell (Tumbleweed) which ships it by default.
                      As I wrote, I'm a Wayland enthusiast and for most use cases with Gnome it's fine. But Gnu / linux is a more complex world than that, I can't stably run Gnome on my desktop pc, as with my 4Gb of ram I don't go anywhere on Gnome. Like me I believe there are still a lot of users, so personally I am not in a hurry, when it will be fully usable on a decent DE that I can use without saturating the ram by opening three browser tabs, I will switch to Wayland, but claim that at this time Wayland can replace Xorg in all use cases, it's a stretch.
                      Gnome is getting a lot of memory fixes. Reality even under X11 its leaking massively. Running as a Wayland compositor just made areas that were leaking memory leak faster.

                      Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
                      You do realize you just contradicted yourself? Also I just had a look at the protocol and its not supporting what you are saying at all so yeah I am still calling BS, I would like to see discussions at the time specifically saying "NVidia and only Nvidia are blocking us"
                      It was blocked by lack of information out Nvidia on being finalised. No I did not contradict self. What you said about wayland not containing clipboard when first release was true if you only looked at the stable parts not the complete thing. But why it was not in stable at that time was failure on Nvidia side to provide answers. This has happened quite a few times leading to lots of stalls until the maintainer of the extension has fairly much gone stuff Nvidia and implemented it anyhow. Of course while parts are not stable upstreams does not have to implement them all.

                      The wayland clipboard delay on coming part of stable wayland protocol is Nvidia fault. It was a bad one to raise as a idea of making a point.

                      Please note X11 clipboard is a mess of incompatible implementations that mostly works by people implementing lots and lots of quirks/hacks to work around it defects.

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