Fedora Looks To Provide Standalone XWayland Package Tracking X.Org Server Git

[oiaohm]

You ever consider the possibility that the reason you have problems attracting people is that your a dick?

Have you not considered the problem that no one coming to this problem because they are being a idiot and dicks who have done no research in what the location is and presume they can keep on just asking for X11 so don't have to work on fixing the framework.

The reality is the issue with HDR monitors shows up in 2015 clearly with the first HDR10. But it was also showing up with major inconsistencies between applications on color corrected screens under X11 due to each application doing their own thing. So multi reinventing the wheel. So this problem was known when Wayland started we have had a lot of stubborn head in sand over it.

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/swick/wayland-protocols/-/blob/color/unstable/color-management/color.rst

Go read this. Notice the X11 server lets the applications do their own thing. Now you have application generating colour corrected 8 bit colour for a 10bit monitor???. You are now really depending on the monitor to have a sane 8 bit to 10 bit conversion built in. This is showing in figure 1.

Figure 2 the wayland way you have the compositor doing the final color correction now you don't have to depend on monitor to have sane color conversion from 8bit to 10bit.

Yes this problem make Nvidia being a dick and not providing support of Xwayland more problem because you are needing it for legacy 8 bit per channel applications on 10 bit+ or channel screens.
.
I bet you would be another one that was saying we need to keep X11 bare metal around for Nvidia driver support. Not seeing the complete house has fallen to pieces with X11. X11 is really a ruin that you are living in like a hobo and those doing wayland are trying to build a new house that has proper roofs and works. Of course that house is not going to fit the hobo needs exactly if the hobo is not taking part in its construction. Yes you saying there are people more skilled in the field than you so you will be happy living in a house that its totally furnished by some else the way they like with restriction you are not allowed to change a thing. Basically now while the main construction is going on is when its best time to speak up,

What was I meant to leave you with your head stuck in the sand and say o well this idiot is going to have to long term suffer when X11 bare metal finally complete falls over.

Remember Nvidia on bare metal X11 cannot do tear free when you have multi monitors running at different frequencies. The roof is serous-ally falling in with X11 bare metal in multi places even using Nvidia closed source drivers. Let alone any hope of doing multi monitors with variable refresh rate.

[MadeUpName]

You ever consider the possibility that the reason you have problems attracting people is that your a dick?

[oiaohm]

Non-sense. Even though even the cheapest consumer cameras can capture 12 stops of light and some thing like an Arri can capture up to 16 stops the average monitor is still stuck at ~8-10. Modern cameras can capture in 14 to 18 -bits your best HDR displays are just Dolby Vision which is 12 bit. The point being that no matter what the display manufacturers say in the advertising, display technology really hasn't progressed much over the years. As for color space the vast majority of monitors are still stuck at RGB or SRGB. Even though most people doing video on a professional level have the ability to create HDR content very few do because almost no one has a display chain capable of accepting and using it. We have had the wonderful Rec 2020 and Rec 2100 standards for ages but very few displays that claim to be rec 2020 actually can display rec 2020 in 2020 if you read their specs. Monitor tech sucks.

You have not allowed for something. Remember you don't have Rec 2020 because that costs todo calibration. You are totally missing the problem.

Beyond that even if a display advertises it's self as HDR doesn't mean it can't accept an SDR signal.

Just because a HDR monitor will accept a SDR signal does not mean to will be converting the colours to screen with a correct conversion. 1 to 3 years a icc profile on SDR for a HDR screen has extremely high odds of be a pointless operation because the monitors internal SDR to HDR conversion is so far out its not fixable just using a SDR signal.

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/swick/wayland-protocols/-/blob/color/unstable/color-management/color.rst#figure-3

The table here could be 3 different monitors show the output brightness for SDR because they have all used different EDR values to convert from SDR to HDR built in. Notice something if you use HDR in your color correction you can sync all 3 different monitors at a reasonable brightness. Do note the EDR=1.6 in that table how SDR in fact brighter than HDR with the other values.

This conversion problem is dooms day. You cannot be sure to be able to calibrate a HDR monitor in SDR mode as its built in conversion can be too far out to fix. Calibration the least amount of third party alterations the better. This increases your odds of being able to calibrate near right.

By the way EDR valve can be different per color channel of SDR inside some HDR monitors say hello to way off color with no way to fix properly without using HDR.

Like it or not the US government plays a large part in display standards. The group of people that the government cares most about are the older people who vote in large numbers. If they can't plug their 20 year old DVD player into a display there will be hell to pay so backwards compatibility will remain a thing. I would love to be able to produce every thing in HDR on the video front and 16 bit on the stills image front. But few will accept it especially buisnesses. Rec 709 is king and will likely be for the remainder of my life time.

The problem is not everything produced in HDR its in fact your ability to calibrate the output. A person plugin in there 20 year old DVD and the movie playing back off colour is not going to be problem. So wayland not having colour management matches what those people will accept heck wrong really wrong color management they will accept.

As to the issue of finding help, if you are looiking for people that understand color management rather than looking for coders then a site like Phoronix is probably the wrong place to look. You want to be posting in places where people understand color science at a level I can only dream of. Have you posted some where like the BMD developers forum? If not I would sign up and then direct message Terry Frechette who you can find in the first post about using your real names. Ask if you can post in the forum and ask if there is any one at BMD that would be interested in what you are working on. As BMD has a Linux version based on Gnome I suspect they would at a very minimum want to have a contact in the Wayland group. If not they would know a LOT of the players in the color management space and be able to point you to people that could help.

I guess you have not been asking about wayland support or mentioning about need to redo color correction because going forwards its busted.

I am going to guess that you have already reached out to the Gimp, Darktable, KDENLive etc groups? If not I would definitely reach out to them.

Lot of them have the same stupidity as you. That we can keep on sticking to X11 until some one magically solved it for us not wanting to see the complete house is about to fall over into complete failure.

While print and display are almost exactly opposite technologies they both work with ICC profiles so maybe the Turbo Print guys might be able to point you in the right direction

The investment from Turbo Print in this problem is zero. There focus is pure printers with no objective of helping out with screens.

MadeUpName big thing here my workflow does not depend on color calibration working. You were the one saying I need to stay with X11 so I can calibrate screen. The problem is that is not a future working solution HDR screens will see to this. You have foolish believed just because a HDR screen will take a SDR signal that you are going to be able to calibrate that. Problem is SDR signal into a HDR screen is not promised to be calibratable.

The trap is HDR mandates screen can display more colours the trap from this is this gives more range for SDR input to be miss calibrated way more than historic SDR screens could be.

Yes I know it kind of stupid you are wanting to produce SDR only content but you need to use HDR signal to monitor so its color correct but that is exactly the requirement we are looking at.

[MadeUpName]

This is not a practical option. HDR displays are coming the normal. We are getting close to not being able to get a display that will work with bare metal X11 new. We have had 10 years where go back and use X11 was a valid move. This option of go back to X11 was not going to last for ever. Like it or not time is up on bare metal X11 if we are lucky we have 2 to 3 years before absolutely dead end that its incompatible with new hardware. If we are unlucky we have less than 12 months.

Non-sense. Even though even the cheapest consumer cameras can capture 12 stops of light and some thing like an Arri can capture up to 16 stops the average monitor is still stuck at ~8-10. Modern cameras can capture in 14 to 18 -bits your best HDR displays are just Dolby Vision which is 12 bit. The point being that no matter what the display manufacturers say in the advertising, display technology really hasn't progressed much over the years. As for color space the vast majority of monitors are still stuck at RGB or SRGB. Even though most people doing video on a professional level have the ability to create HDR content very few do because almost no one has a display chain capable of accepting and using it. We have had the wonderful Rec 2020 and Rec 2100 standards for ages but very few displays that claim to be rec 2020 actually can display rec 2020 in 2020 if you read their specs. Monitor tech sucks.

Beyond that even if a display advertises it's self as HDR doesn't mean it can't accept an SDR signal. My HTPC is a little Atom based Cubi box running MythTV on X powered KDE which feeds into my LG OLED. The display is able to look at the signal being sent to it and determine if it is SDR or HDR and will react accordingly. That isn't going to change any time soon. Then there is the fact that most people consume their content online these days and few organizations want to pay for the bandwidth to send an HDR signal. It makes me want to cry every time I see what Youtube does to my videos when I upload them and they transcode them.

Like it or not the US government plays a large part in display standards. The group of people that the government cares most about are the older people who vote in large numbers. If they can't plug their 20 year old DVD player into a display there will be hell to pay so backwards compatibility will remain a thing. I would love to be able to produce every thing in HDR on the video front and 16 bit on the stills image front. But few will accept it especially buisnesses. Rec 709 is king and will likely be for the remainder of my life time.

As to the issue of finding help, if you are looiking for people that understand color management rather than looking for coders then a site like Phoronix is probably the wrong place to look. You want to be posting in places where people understand color science at a level I can only dream of. Have you posted some where like the BMD developers forum? If not I would sign up and then direct message Terry Frechette who you can find in the first post about using your real names. Ask if you can post in the forum and ask if there is any one at BMD that would be interested in what you are working on. As BMD has a Linux version based on Gnome I suspect they would at a very minimum want to have a contact in the Wayland group. If not they would know a LOT of the players in the color management space and be able to point you to people that could help.

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewforum.php?f=12

I am going to guess that you have already reached out to the Gimp, Darktable, KDENLive etc groups? If not I would definitely reach out to them.

While print and display are almost exactly opposite technologies they both work with ICC profiles so maybe the Turbo Print guys might be able to point you in the right direction.

https://turboprint.info/

[oiaohm]

Can I do development work for Wayland? No I can't I just don't understand graphics technology at that level.

Is that the problem no its not.
You need to read what I had linked.

https://www.collabora.com/news-and-blog/blog/2020/11/19/developing-wayland-color-management-and-high-dynamic-range/

Currently the active people around the topic are me (Collabora), Vitaly Prosyak (AMD), and Naveen Kumar (Intel). Sebastian Wick (unaffilated) is still around as well. None of us is a color management or HDR expert by trade, so we are all learning things as we go.

So you have 4 developers with zero production experience in color management now being in charge to design the color management interfaces for Wayland. They are not in desperate need people can develop for wayland as you already have 4 of those they are need end users of the technology to provide them with advice on what the colour management system needs to be able to work perfectly. The answer do exactly the same as X11 is not possible because that going to fall on it face.

If you are an expert on the topics of color management or HDR displays and content, or a developer interested in contributing to the project, you are warmly welcome to join the development.

This is the people they are looking for. If you are using color management in production setting you will be more of expert at what is required than the core developers.

Fedora can keep X as an option for those that need it until Wayland is ready for prime time or they can say we dont' care about you go away.

This is not a practical option. HDR displays are coming the normal. We are getting close to not being able to get a display that will work with bare metal X11 new. We have had 10 years where go back and use X11 was a valid move. This option of go back to X11 was not going to last for ever. Like it or not time is up on bare metal X11 if we are lucky we have 2 to 3 years before absolutely dead end that its incompatible with new hardware. If we are unlucky we have less than 12 months.

Reality is color management with Wayland has been left to the absolute last min because there has been no developers with the knowledge in color management to design it and no users of color management systems have stepped up either to provide developers with the knowledge in color management.

The reality is those using color management on Linux have left the wayland development of color management high and dry without the required information and that need to change yesterday.

The hard reality is the 10 year buffer to migrated from X11 to Wayland has basically been used up.

[MadeUpName]

There are many work cases where you are needing to check in multi colour spaces where X11 falls completely on it face as well. X11 has not been able to calibrate HDR monitors properly and its not fixable inside X11 protocol.

We also need people to get involved with the Wayland rework of the calibration to make sure everything that needs to be covered at this time is.

The reality you were given notice 10 years ago. Those doing graphical work have gone we have X11 we are fine we don't have to take part in fixing up the protocol stuff we need. Now hardware ware is changing with HDR that was predictable to come 10 years ago now the predicted failures of X11 are here.

The way its going to break due to those doing graphical work going we can keep on ignoring Wayland will be those uses will return to Windows or Mac if the problem is not addressed.

Really MadeUpName so you have production workflow that mandates that you can calibrate monitor on Linux right. How much investment have you done to maintain the system you depend on. I would guess nothing. Lots parties have done this and now has bite.

Remember the broken OpenSSL issues again another case of expecting third parties to pick up the heavy lifting. Of course that third party can come mr no one. If the third party has come Mr no one at some point in future there will come a time to pay the debt.

The mind set that Wayland has to do exactly what X11 did has to go away. The idea that third parties are magically going to make Wayland work for your usage case needs to also go away. Basically get involved now working reviewing what wayland people are doing, providing feed back and resources to get the work done or be willing to live with the fall out.

You make it sound like I am some free loader that has never contributed to the open source community. I started using Linux when it meant loading 50 Slackware floppy disks into a computer. I worked as a dedicated Linux system admin for over 2 decades. I have both debugged and submitted patches over that entire time. I have also pushed many, many companies to adopt Linux and other opensource software often paid distros like RH pushing development money into the system. I am now old enough that I can no longer get out of bed 10 times a night and still show up for work on time in the morning. I no longer wish to be on call 24x7.365. I have had years long stretches where I couldn't leave town because I was the only one that could recover the sytsems if they failed. I traded quality of life to be a dedicated Linux admin. Now I am at a point in my life where I had to make a change. MANY people in IT will hit that wall.

I have been trying to move to Wayland for years but I keep having to move back because KDE doesn't work with it yet and I would rather switch OS than use Gnome.

Can I do development work for Wayland? No I can't I just don't understand graphics technology at that level. Fedora can keep X as an option for those that need it until Wayland is ready for prime time or they can say we dont' care about you go away. The Spinal Tap becoming more selective in their appeal approach. Unfortunatly the open source community is moving more and more in that direction. They can make their move and then I can make mine. I need a calibrated work flow or I am out of business so the choice won't be hard. . Now fuck off and go eat a dick you little shit.

[oiaohm]

Thanks for the link. I don't disagree that X is broken in multiple ways, but it was possible to calibrate your monitor and get work done with it. Telling people that work with graphics that they need to get off X and then maybe in a few years Wayland will be usable for graphics work again is the same as saying switch to Winows or Mac if you want to do any thing other than play games. Might as well provide a download link for windows 10.

There are many work cases where you are needing to check in multi colour spaces where X11 falls completely on it face as well. X11 has not been able to calibrate HDR monitors properly and its not fixable inside X11 protocol.

We also need people to get involved with the Wayland rework of the calibration to make sure everything that needs to be covered at this time is.

The reality you were given notice 10 years ago. Those doing graphical work have gone we have X11 we are fine we don't have to take part in fixing up the protocol stuff we need. Now hardware ware is changing with HDR that was predictable to come 10 years ago now the predicted failures of X11 are here.

The way its going to break due to those doing graphical work going we can keep on ignoring Wayland will be those uses will return to Windows or Mac if the problem is not addressed.

Really MadeUpName so you have production workflow that mandates that you can calibrate monitor on Linux right. How much investment have you done to maintain the system you depend on. I would guess nothing. Lots parties have done this and now has bite.

Remember the broken OpenSSL issues again another case of expecting third parties to pick up the heavy lifting. Of course that third party can come mr no one. If the third party has come Mr no one at some point in future there will come a time to pay the debt.

The mind set that Wayland has to do exactly what X11 did has to go away. The idea that third parties are magically going to make Wayland work for your usage case needs to also go away. Basically get involved now working reviewing what wayland people are doing, providing feed back and resources to get the work done or be willing to live with the fall out.

[MadeUpName]

There are a lot of areas like this where with Wayland it cannot be copy what X11 has been doing because what X11 has been doing is completely broken. Yet people argue that a lot of these points are reasons to stay on X11 when they are in fact reasons why we have to leave X11.

Thanks for the link. I don't disagree that X is broken in multiple ways, but it was possible to calibrate your monitor and get work done with it. Telling people that work with graphics that they need to get off X and then maybe in a few years Wayland will be usable for graphics work again is the same as saying switch to Winows or Mac if you want to do any thing other than play games. Might as well provide a download link for windows 10.

[oiaohm]

Just a warning. Even though the testing notes talk about going back if you try this you can't. So it is a one way street. Also if you need to be able to calibrate your monitor you will no longer be able to. That is a deal breaker for people who need to be able to do color critical work.

https://www.collabora.com/news-and-blog/blog/2020/11/19/developing-wayland-color-management-and-high-dynamic-range/

Color management under X11 has been a deal breaker for those needing to-do color critical work for a while now in a lot of cases. There are a stack of limitations in the X11 color management that screw end users over.

There are a lot of areas like this where with Wayland it cannot be copy what X11 has been doing because what X11 has been doing is completely broken. Yet people argue that a lot of these points are reasons to stay on X11 when they are in fact reasons why we have to leave X11.

[MadeUpName]

Just a warning. Even though the testing notes talk about going back if you try this you can't. So it is a one way street. Also if you need to be able to calibrate your monitor you will no longer be able to. That is a deal breaker for people who need to be able to do color critical work.