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GNOME X.Org vs. Wayland Performance + Power Usage On Fedora 32 With AMD Renoir Laptop

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  • Originally posted by duby229 View Post

    Umm, your last sentence is total bullshit.

    Nvidia drivers have decades old multi-monitor bugs that nVidia still refuses to acknowledge. -By far- a bigger problem is its unbearably slow Xrender acceleration, desktop performance on nVidia is just too damn slow. But nVidia drivers biggest problem is that it's OpenGL implementation isn't even -anywhere- close to compliant with Kronos specs. Nvidia makes NO attempt at all to fix their longstanding multi-monitor bugs and they make NO attempt to improve their horrible Xrender performance and they exacerbate their nonstandard OpenGL every single chance they get.
    Thats because they were mainly X11 bugs, AMD also had similar issues.

    Regarding OpenGL spec, they don't follow the OpenGL spec completely because a lot of games don't follow it either. I mentioned it in some other thread.

    Originally posted by duby229 View Post
    On the other hand AMD's OSS drivers may not have been full featured until the least few years, but at least they were completely stable and fast and standards compliant since at least 2010, with only a few exceptions pertaining to new product releases.

    NOT counting FGLRX, that driver was total garbage.
    Even the open source drivers currently have a lot of issues. Note that I have been running X11 + Nvidia on a laptop with multiple displays for the past decade. The biggest issue I have experienced is actually optimus/render offload.


    Note that I typically ran KDE if that makes a difference.

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    • Originally posted by duby229 View Post

      Umm, your last sentence is total bullshit.

      Nvidia drivers have decades old multi-monitor bugs that nVidia still refuses to acknowledge. -By far- a bigger problem is its unbearably slow Xrender acceleration, desktop performance on nVidia is just too damn slow. But nVidia drivers biggest problem is that it's OpenGL implementation isn't even -anywhere- close to compliant with Kronos specs. Nvidia makes NO attempt at all to fix their longstanding multi-monitor bugs and they make NO attempt to improve their horrible Xrender performance and they exacerbate their nonstandard OpenGL every single chance they get.

      On the other hand AMD's OSS drivers may not have been full featured until the least few years, but at least they were completely stable and fast and standards compliant since at least 2010, with only a few exceptions pertaining to new product releases.

      NOT counting FGLRX, that driver was total garbage.
      Nvidia doesn't need to care about that,... They focus at gamers, and CUDA solutions. Gamers (mostly) use only single monitor to get the best performance. And, CUDA users don't care that much, as they just want to get acceleration working for their projects.

      However, I hope AMD gets much better position in the market. I like AMD's OSS support. I wouldn't go with Nvidia GPU.

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      • Originally posted by kravemir View Post

        Nvidia doesn't need to care about that,... They focus at gamers, and CUDA solutions. Gamers (mostly) use only single monitor to get the best performance. And, CUDA users don't care that much, as they just want to get acceleration working for their projects.

        However, I hope AMD gets much better position in the market. I like AMD's OSS support. I wouldn't go with Nvidia GPU.
        Ok, so nVidia doesn't care about its users... And that's a good thing how???

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        • Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post

          Thats because they were mainly X11 bugs, AMD also had similar issues.

          Regarding OpenGL spec, they don't follow the OpenGL spec completely because a lot of games don't follow it either. I mentioned it in some other thread.



          Even the open source drivers currently have a lot of issues. Note that I have been running X11 + Nvidia on a laptop with multiple displays for the past decade. The biggest issue I have experienced is actually optimus/render offload.


          Note that I typically ran KDE if that makes a difference.
          Nope, you're wrong. The OSS drivers have had working multimonitor support for decades, they have had working Xrender acceleration since at least 2007, they have had working and standards compliant (though incomplete) OpenGL acceleration since at least 2010. -ONLY- nVidia stands out in these bugs and problems.

          And yet RadeonSI has had standards compliant OpenGL from it's very inception. Why do -you- think -only- nVidia drivers can't impliment standards compliant OpenGL? And why do you defend that? Your stance on nVidia is totally asinine.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by duby229 View Post

            Nope, you're wrong. The OSS drivers have had working multimonitor support for decades, they have had working Xrender acceleration since at least 2007, they have had working and standards compliant (though incomplete) OpenGL acceleration since at least 2010. -ONLY- nVidia stands out in these bugs and problems.
            My laptop/s says otherwise.

            Also note that XRender was expiremental and buggy for some time before it stabalized just like any new X extensions (see https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=111&t=88842 ) . Also some bugs were due to KWin and not NVidia for example (i.e. see https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=111&t=83835) where even Intel had issues with XRender). Broken XOrg configs also caused issues.

            You have to forgive me for being skeptical of what you are complaining because historically people just blamed NVidia for everything just because its NVidia even though there were actual bugs in compositing engines and/or XOrg. AMD also has had issues (fglrx or otherwise).

            Do note that I was talking about video hardware acceleration, that is not XRender. XRender is hardware acceleration for compositing which is something else entirely. You kind of derailed the discussion.

            Originally posted by duby229 View Post
            And yet RadeonSI has had standards compliant OpenGL from it's very inception. Why do -you- think -only- nVidia drivers can't impliment standards compliant OpenGL? And why do you defend that? Your stance on nVidia is totally asinine.
            Its also the same reason why AMD drivers are shit on windows when it comes to games where as NVidia drivers just work (almost all of the time). You can blame game developers not following OpenGL spec properly so it you either have standards compliant drivers that don't work with a lot of games (including AAA ones) or drivers that have been designed to work with games.

            In the end this is the argument that standards end up being how people use the software and not how its specified on paper. Vulkan solves this problem entirely BTW (Vulkan was deliberately designed to not work unless you use it properly because of this specific issue).
            mdedetrich
            Senior Member
            Last edited by mdedetrich; 17 June 2020, 05:44 PM.

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            • Originally posted by duby229 View Post

              Ok, so nVidia doesn't care about its users... And that's a good thing how???
              Nvidia doesn't care about 1% of non-users,... Not much lost for them. Nvidia does cover and support their target customers. This phoronix screaming minority is very much non important, don't fancy yourself,... Don't act like entitled child, that Nvidia should listen to you,... You're not that important, and Nvidia shows it right to yours face. Deal with it.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by kravemir View Post

                Nvidia doesn't care about 1% of non-users,... Not much lost for them. Nvidia does cover and support their target customers. This phoronix screaming minority is very much non important, don't fancy yourself,... Don't act like entitled child, that Nvidia should listen to you,... You're not that important, and Nvidia shows it right to yours face. Deal with it.
                Just plain retarded....

                Comment


                • Originally posted by raster View Post

                  IF you had read the text rather than just some numbers, you wouldn't need that reply as I clearly said it's not a brilliant benchmark but an indicator... perhaps you should read a bit more? Like the bits where I say I work on said code so you can be sure this indicator is not just a "on startup" but a general trend over a longer runtime too which I clearly indicate as well as this is just an indicator of where things are going. I actually profile my code regularly in gory detail from a range of angles, and an app is running - a terminal, not empty. You didn't read the bit where I said '"I spent all of 5 minutes on this and i need to go to sleep now" which is why it's not clearly not exhaustive. I clearly qualified and detailed the situation already - thus text to go read. It'd up to a much more involved benchmark to do that and I had and still have many other more important things to do, but I do know Wayland can easily do better than X11.

                  I've been doing this for over 25 years. Wayland is the first X alternative that has gotten any traction and it is decently designed. I've watched the hopefuls come and go and leave X11 still standing, until now. X11 is still standing but Wayland has not gone... it's growing. I was totally "Oh ANOTHER X11 replacement? Do you want to join the corpses of Y-windows, Berlin and DirectFB and possibly some other lesser knowns? Ummm no thanks" for the first few years because of this. I changed my mind as time went on for good reasons.
                  Still way too much text.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by royce View Post

                    Wayland is not a thing that works more fluently than some other thing. It's a protocol.
                    So they've done everything wrong, it's just up for the compositor + wm implementer to fix it?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Volta View Post

                      The point was Wayland is quite young. It also matters when Gnome, KDE, Firefox started implementing it. X is 30 years with us and it's still far from perfect.
                      Well it fundamentally can't be perfect, hence Mir & Wayland.

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