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  • Originally posted by jacob View Post

    ...In other words implementing a good Wayland compositor is much more performance critical than on X11 and it's much more challenging than writing a X11 window manager. We can expect that with Wayland, the tradition of people writing various little window managers (like we had fvwm, afterstep, i3 etc...) will probably vanish; there will be Gnome, KDE and perhaps Sway.
    I know I am responding again before getting to the end of the whole thread here, but did want to say something. One things that Sway people are trying to do, with creating the 'wlroots' library is to try and create a standard library (if that is the right thing to call it) that abstracts away a lot of the heavy lifting in creating a new compositor for new window managers, etc. I actually think this could make it easier for people to create a whole new generation of simple, out of the way, shells (i.e fvwm, afterstep, twm - i3 is ready there with Sway). I am absolutely looking forward to this. I am not a coder, I just cannot do so myself. But I think it will happen, and I think it will be great! I don't need a full blown Gnome or KDE desktop environment. Sway is cool, but I think there could be some really cool light-weight possibilities out there to happen. Again, the idea is wlroots can to create a library to do the heavy lifting and make this easier, so each of these does not need to reinvent the wheel. Maybe a better library that wlroots will come along to do even better, but hopefully my point comes across.

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    • Now stop throlling and change distro.
      Last edited by Guest; 12 April 2020, 02:09 AM.

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      • Originally posted by Hibbelharry View Post

        What do you think, why are there no xorg X11 Releases? Check the announcment mailinglist archive yourself:


        There are some releases due to migration to gitlab and some smaller fixes, but there is no real progress anymore. Also do your research on xserver 1.21., it's just not happening since a long time. Maybe check the activity here and try to spot something not related to Wayland or being simple compile fixes in 2020:



        That's the exact definition of dead.
        Searching for a new release over and over for everything is a disease.

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        • Originally posted by angrypie View Post

          Can't you see it, fool? Wayland is the only way. Forget about basic functionality that exists since Windows 95 and embrace your new display protocol overlords.
          Just for you, and those needing the new game against boredom.

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          • Originally posted by Terrablit View Post
            It just goes to show you that people hate change. Many businesses still use DOS-based point-of-sale systems. Banks are still using COBOL-based software on mainframes. They want to ride that stability wave into the ground even if it makes the inevitable migration much harder, because it cuts down on short-term effort. And sacrificing long-term benefits for short-term gains is the mindset that drives our capitalist economy.
            It's not a case of hate of change. It's that that software works, it does everything they expect from it and, in some (many) cases, there simply isn't any direct replacement they could easily migrate to. And since it's still perfectly possible to run DOS software (either natively or with DosBox) and since COBOL compilers are still available and supported, the easiest and safest option for them is simply to keep using what they have.

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            • Originally posted by birdie View Post

              The fact that out of all Linux DEs in Linux only the two most financially sound DEs could manage the transition to Wayland and people still have very serious issues working with it 12 years after it was created says a lot about the foundations of Wayland which just totally suck. It's as fast as it's incomplete and broken. I don't really care about "fast" and "secure" when I cannot have my work done under Wayland.
              This is not true. A Wayland compositor is not much different than a X11 compositor. If a DE could support compositing in X11, that DE could make the transition to Wayland with a little bit of work. I am not a XFCE user so i don't know if it offers X11 compositing, but i thought it did.

              Even if it didn't, it could use Sway's library to support Wayland easier. It is a nice library. It could also use mutter, after all XFCE is using gtk, no? Excuse me for not being knowledgeable about XFCE but i never liked it and never used it.

              Anyway, if you and XFCE prefer X11, stay with X11. Just don't complain the vast majority of us transition to Wayland.

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              • Originally posted by jacob View Post

                All the best to you, but wlroots only makes it easier to handle the Wayland protocol, not implementing a compositor as such. A traditional X11 window manager like IceWM etc. is a project for a hobbyist or an enthusiast, but a Wayland compositor definitely isn't due to its inherent complexity and stringent performance requirements. As an analogy it may be possible for someone to decide to resurrect Linux 1.0 with his own hands; but no single individual or even a small team can set out to resurrect Linux 5.x. A hobbyist can write a toy compositor for Wayland, but not a performant, production quality one usable on a wide range of hardware and workloads.
                Then, use mutter. Why XFCE refuses to use mutter? The use other libs from GNOME, no? Mutter has a plugin structure, gnome shell is a plugin for mutter, XFCE can create a new XFCE plugin for it.

                It always amazes me that people are this stubborn, they refuse to utilize what is available because of NIH and pride. Mutter is the best Wayland compositor around, the Linux Mint guys forked it and created Cinnamon, and yet DE devs refuse to utilize Mutter because of pride. They do utilize gtk though, i suppose it doesn't hurt their pride.... They use a crapton of libs from GNOME, they use Xserver (which they didn't build themselves), but Mutter? Oh noes not invented here.

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                • Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post

                  Then, use mutter. Why XFCE refuses to use mutter? The use other libs from GNOME, no? Mutter has a plugin structure, gnome shell is a plugin for mutter, XFCE can create a new XFCE plugin for it.

                  It always amazes me that people are this stubborn, they refuse to utilize what is available because of NIH and pride. Mutter is the best Wayland compositor around, the Linux Mint guys forked it and created Cinnamon, and yet DE devs refuse to utilize Mutter because of pride. They do utilize gtk though, i suppose it doesn't hurt their pride.... They use a crapton of libs from GNOME, they use Xserver (which they didn't build themselves), but Mutter? Oh noes not invented here.
                  I'm not familiar with the details of Mutter and I don't know if it can easily be used outside of GNOME. Another solution for this use-case could be Mir (which is a Wayland compositor now), that's the reason why MATE is considering using it.

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                  • Originally posted by jacob View Post

                    I'm not familiar with the details of Mutter and I don't know if it can easily be used outside of GNOME. Another solution for this use-case could be Mir (which is a Wayland compositor now), that's the reason why MATE is considering using it.
                    I am not a GNOME developer either, but i find it hard to believe that it can't be easily used outside of GNOME. It might need some GNOME libs, yes, but you don't have to use gnome-shell or gnome-apps with it. And XFCE IIRC already uses gtk, so why not?

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                    • Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post

                      I am not a GNOME developer either, but i find it hard to believe that it can't be easily used outside of GNOME. It might need some GNOME libs, yes, but you don't have to use gnome-shell or gnome-apps with it. And XFCE IIRC already uses gtk, so why not?
                      There is more to GNOME than gnome-shell or gtk. Obviously Mutter can't live without dconf (but I presume XFCE has it too), and then there is the whole problem of session management and handling. In 3.34 GNOME dropped its gnome-session implementation to leave systemd in charge and obviously Mutter would reflect that. I don't know whether XFCE has migrated to systemd-based session management (yet?) but since it seems to be the desktop of choice of some of the systemd dissidents, I would guess probably not. There is also a bunch of features such as multi-head support, window decorations and other that are implemented through gnome-shell extensions, so I'm not sure how independent Mutter really is from gnome-shell and how well it can work without it.

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