Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Wayland's Wild Decade From v1.0 Release To Usable GNOME/KDE Desktop Support

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Buntolo
    replied
    I'm using GNOME 3 + Wayland with a nvidia GTX 970 with proprietary driver for more than 2 years now. No big issues I can remember of, I even play games with Steam, use Firefox and Chromium since day 1, all without hassle.

    I've no idea about how that works, I don't know if every program is working via X on Wayland.

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by stingray454 View Post
    Simply could not get it to work. Spent days trying out every driver version there is, changing settings, boot parameters and whatnot, and while it worked flawlessly under X11 I could never get Vulkan to initialize with Wayland on nvidia.

    I did get the nouveau driver to work with wayland setups. Performance was bad due to the firmware problems. Really you cannot do very much with Nvidia when you run into the problem that there binary driver is fairly much X11 or nothing in many places.

    https://devtalk.nvidia.com/default/t...t-without-x11/

    This here shows the Nvidia mind set really well. AMD and Intel options are fine. Nvidia options are basically dead until they wake up hey there are use cases where we need stuff to work without X11 that need to be taken serous-ally.

    Leave a comment:


  • stingray454
    replied
    Originally posted by Venemo View Post

    Just out of curiosity, what sort of issues do you see with Vulkan and Wayland?
    Simply could not get it to work. Spent days trying out every driver version there is, changing settings, boot parameters and whatnot, and while it worked flawlessly under X11 I could never get Vulkan to initialize with Wayland on nvidia. Not really sure where the issue was, but after a while I just gave up. Used Wayland for work related tasks (worked better on multi monitor setup) and then just switched to an X11 session if I ever wanted to game or similar. But from googling the issue, nvidia+wayland+vulkan seems to be a real headache (not sure if anyone at all got it working).

    Leave a comment:


  • ThanosApostolou
    replied
    Originally posted by 144Hz View Post
    Gusar Sorry but that’s reality. There’s no need to deal with other compositors. There’s no benefit from dealing with other compositors.

    So why would they want to do that? Like I said, if people want to collaborate then they can just use Mutter and help develop it. Like endlessm and Canonical did.
    I'm not an expert but if I've understood it right mutter isn't actually a stand-alone Wayland Compositor. The compositor is actually Gnome Shell/mutter when mutter almost acts as a library. Various tools report Gnome Shell as the actual compositor. You cannot separate each other due to how Gnome developers have implemented them on Wayland (in comparison with X where mutter can actually be used without Gnome Shell). So you cannot use Wayland mutter with xfce4-panel or with mate-panel, without using the Gnome Shell. If that was the case I'm sure that many projects with have preferred to use Wayland mutter in the future for their Wayland transition. But the only options seem to be Mir, kwin_wayland and maybe sway since it has a floating windows mode too.
    Last edited by ThanosApostolou; 02 January 2020, 08:40 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • bwat47
    replied
    Originally posted by deadite66 View Post
    "Usable"
    I use gnome on wayland every day on my laptop, it works fine

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by ALRBP View Post
    How can you seriously list theoretical Linux security limitations while practice has proved Linux to be much safer than Windows ?
    Problem is these limitations its like why are business patching CVE numbers that we know at totally bogus as well. Why are business patching bogus CVE numbers because patching CVE numbers is written in the PCI DSS standard so you do so you can do business with those systems.

    Application whitelisting, Unified Central management and information leakage prevention is also part of these different standards. Yes PCI DSS does not in fact agree with X11 because X11 does not have the require means to isolate data. The other two also link to standards at well businesses are required to conform to at different times.

    Originally posted by ALRBP View Post
    The fact is that Linux is more secure than Windows, no matter how many theoretical limitations you may find. When organizations are attacked, the targets are Windows machines, not Linux ones.
    Not true on that Linux is targeted quite a bit these days. Windows is still more commonly targeted but the Linux ones are not 100 percent safe.

    Originally posted by ALRBP View Post
    Also, the average desktop user do not care about all that stuff and is very happy to not have to pay for an anti-malware like one Windows, so why is him not using Linux ?
    Horrible reality is your average desktop user does not fund 90% of your software development. Its your enterprise customers who are paying the money that runs most of the development.

    Originally posted by ALRBP View Post
    One of the reason is no preinstalled Linux and the other is the same as for companies : the lack of compatible software. (and the difficulty of the change itself)
    This is a double side. The 3 issues I listed means Linux desktop cannot be used every where and meet contractual requirements. If you are going to pay for software to be development and you want to keep it as cheep as possible in the current setup the money for development will go in the direction of Windows software.

    This is the chicken and egg.

    You want compatible software. Enterprise funds development of software. Enterprise choose to fund(by purchase or coding themselves) for software they can run in all desktop tiers. Now you have problem my list of 3 means compatible software development is not getting as much funding as it could get if they were addressed.


    Originally posted by ALRBP View Post
    For servers, Linux simply dominates. For super-computer, it has no effective competition.
    One of the things that in fact got Linux the dominance in servers was Selinux from the NSA. Since you can set selinux up and meet all your security requirements for 90 percent+ of servers to meet contractual requirements like from PCI DSS. Large percentage of Microsoft Windows servers in web servers is because its hard to make Linux meet some of these standard contractual requirements. Yes one of the ones why windows still has market share is there is a standard effecting servers in particular field that say whitelist of applications is required.

    So to take out the last 20% of web servers that are windows servers requires address some security features to get about half of that. The other half is software issues.

    These security limitations cause contract limitations that basically say you cannot use X software because you will be in breach of contract if you do. This does not factor in how secure or lack of secure the software really is. If a contract said you had to run Multics or some other odd ball OS and you could be legally screwed but you could also argue discrimination and win. One way to avoid discrimination is just provide list of feature the OS has to have to be acceptable to contract still has the same effect of contract locking out Linux.

    Basically its not a question is Windows or Linux more secure. Its more a question can I use Linux or Windows equally well setup and not end breaching any contract obligation I may have signed. More secure is a bonus. Currently Windows wins this hand and we need to change that. Hopefully to one cay that is a breach of contract to be using Windows instead of the current where its breach to contract at times to be using the Linux Desktop.

    Leave a comment:


  • duby229
    replied
    Originally posted by 144Hz View Post
    oiaohm Take a +1. The security issues on X are very severe and can’t be mitigated.

    It’s Wayland or nothing.
    that's absurd. Wayland is not the thing, the compositor is the thing. A compositor could just as well use any other display protocol and the end user would never know a difference. Except maybe if the chosen display protocol was more complete than Wayland, in which case they would probably notice faster progress towards being fully featured.

    Leave a comment:


  • ALRBP
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    So you are a place that already allows Linux desktops.


    What I am saying might seam absurd but its the reality. Organisation that have security tiering in there desktops have checklist of features that must be there to use the desktop at different security tiers.

    https://malt.web.cern.ch/malt/global/malt-table/
    Notice here at cern Windows is for the Hardened PC as in the secure ones. Linux and OS X is only for the non hardened.

    The missing features are causing Linux Desktops not to get into the top tiers of different organisation desktop. Its the top tier that normally set the software policy on everything else.



    Lets say you company policy says you have to deploy real-time malware protection.
    https://www.clamav.net/documents/on-access-scanning
    Simple you install clamav maybe add a few extra signatures turn on the on access scanning feature. This fairly much turns out to be like tits on bull. But its not a barrier to Linux deployment any more. Its not an arguement that someone who wants to make desktop management simple by reducing OSs can use or going to make deploying Linux more expensive.



    This is wrong. To be the reference desktop OS in many organisations you have to get to the top security tier. We are basically down to 2-3 missing features causing Linux not to be able to tick the checklist off to be a top security tier desktop..

    1) Application whitelisting. Third party applications that do this for Linux cost more than a Windows license in lots of cases. We need something like clamav in this class. So this box can be ticked cheaply at this stage.
    2) Unified Central management freeipa is getting close. Same here the cost of the closed source to manage Linux desktop computers centrally also end up costing more than a Windows license.
    3) information leakage issues on the desktop. Wayland stuff mostly fixes this. But we do need more applications to use wayland directly. There are commercial third party add on to X11 that cost 400 USD a seat to address this problem so over twice the price of the Windows license and cause lots of X11 programs to crash.




    The problem I have these missing security features patching them over with closed source solutions directly effects the real world money cost of deploying Linux desktops to the point they are not competitive on money let alone the lack of applications problem at times.




    Get it we need these security features to make it possible in more cases to make the arguement that using Linux is good for their profit. Without fixes to these problems there are many cases where LInux Desktops are not good for company profit. Problem here to come the defacto standard in a company you need solution to work at all security tiers in business without being classed as major problem or with major costs todo that. Currently Linux desktops are not doing that.

    There are some technical things blocking the Linux Desktop that cost a arm and a leg to work around using closed source third parties.
    How can you seriously list theoretical Linux security limitations while practice has proved Linux to be much safer than Windows ? I do not care about yours lists, most people do not care about that. The fact is that Linux is more secure than Windows, no matter how many theoretical limitations you may find. When organizations are attacked, the targets are Windows machines, not Linux ones.
    Also, the average desktop user do not care about all that stuff and is very happy to not have to pay for an anti-malware like one Windows, so why is him not using Linux ?
    One of the reason is no preinstalled Linux and the other is the same as for companies : the lack of compatible software. (and the difficulty of the change itself)
    For servers, Linux simply dominates. For super-computer, it has no effective competition.

    Leave a comment:


  • hiryu
    replied
    Thanks to this article, I took it upon myself to try KDE with Wayland on my laptop with an Intel iGPU on Kubuntu 19.10... Yeah, it definitely still has some ways to go. Krunner (think alt-F2 or alt-spacebar) tends to stop working after a few uses... Once Krunner stops working... The K menu (the application launch menu) stops working.

    There's weirdness with maximizing windows and then de-maximizing them...

    That said, the desktop never crashed on me once. The few applications I tried ran fine and were stable. I watched some YouTube videos through FireFox (which I'm pretty sure is running through XWayland), konsole, dolphin, etc were just fine. Tbird (which I'm also pretty sure is running through XWayland) also gave me no trouble.

    Interestingly, moving windows around in Wayland and X (with kwin compositing) is about equally as smooth for me, but window resizing is a lot nicer under Wayland.

    I think KDE support for Wayland should be a lot further along than it is... However, I'm still more happy with the state than I am unhappy, for whatever the hell that is worth.

    One thing that REALLY annoyed me... No middle click pasting! I'm used to not having it whenever I have to use Windows or Mac OS... But in KDE, I just expected it to be there. Ah well.

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by 144Hz View Post
    oiaohm Take a +1. The security issues on X are very severe and can’t be mitigated.

    It’s Wayland or nothing.
    X11 issues can be mitigated if you don't care that roughly 80 percent of all X11 applications don't work any more. So its not that X11 cannot be mitigated its more that mitigated X11 comes very much you have thrown the baby out with the bath water in the process. Or you have like xwayland under wayland that you can sandbox the hell out of.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X