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Ubuntu 19.10 Is The First Time We've Seen (X)Wayland Gaming Performance Match X.Org

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    MartinN
    Official Linux/Wayland/systemd fanboy

  • MartinN
    replied
    Originally posted by phoronix View Post
    Phoronix: Ubuntu 19.10 Is The First Time We've Seen (X)Wayland Gaming Performance Match X.Org

    With Ubuntu 19.10 it's the first time we have seen the Radeon gaming performance under a GNOME Wayland session match or exceed the performance found under the default GNOME X.Org session...

    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...Wayland-Gaming
    But can Mir match Wayland performance.. now that's the million dollar question

    Leave a comment:

  • ssokolow
    Senior Member

  • ssokolow
    replied
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    I said graphics API passthrough (ala VirGL) and I mean it. I also implicitly meant GPU hardware virtualization features (similar to CPU virtualization that allows VMs at all). No secondary GPU required.

    Also if Wine can't work reliably with most of the applications you need anyway, which is the current situation and unlikely to change in the future, there isn't much choice.
    First, that doesn't account for the cost of Windows licenses that I proposed you cover the cost of for anyone who you want to switch away from Wine.

    Second, Wine works quite well for what I use it for. (In some cases, modern Windows won't run what I use Wine for because I'm enjoying childhood favourites like Lode Runner: The Legend Returns, Bricklayer, or early Win32 stuff that Wine does a better job of satisfying Windows for than real Windows. Heck, GOG.com sometimes uses Wine DLLs on Windows to modernize games that depend on now-defunct APIs like DirectDraw.)

    Concurrent with the deprecation of DirectDraw was the deterioration of Windows compatibility with old games that relied on this old API, with Command & Conquer, Warcraft 2, and Theme Hospital among those affected. In newer Windows versions, some games will refuse to run under a 32-bit bit depth, others showing a black screen or glitching when switched out. Re-implementation of DDraw is, as a result, vital to many communities still hosting these games. Commonly used replacements include:
    • WineD3D from Wine, which translates into OpenGL.[3]
    • ...


    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    Replacing that board is cheap.

    Like "not eat out one weekend" cheap.
    I'm used to not eating out and only ever do so when someone else offers to treat me. It's much smarter on the pocketbook to just learn how to cook whatever it is I'm feeling like.

    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
    Unless you are gaming with it, even a PCIe 2.0 x1 slot is enough for a secondary GPU. I know, I've been using the main (only) slot of a mini-itx for a PCIe-SAS card, and the actual GPU is connected to the M.2 slot through a ribbon adapter.
    I do game with both native Linux games and Windows games on the same PC.

    Leave a comment:

  • starshipeleven
    Premium Supporter

  • starshipeleven
    replied
    Originally posted by ssokolow View Post
    Are you going to be the one to pay for hardware and Windows licenses for everyone who only has one GPU and no license for a copy of Windows to run in the VM?
    I said graphics API passthrough (ala VirGL) and I mean it. I also implicitly meant GPU hardware virtualization features (similar to CPU virtualization that allows VMs at all). No secondary GPU required.

    Also if Wine can't work reliably with most of the applications you need anyway, which is the current situation and unlikely to change in the future, there isn't much choice.

    I have a pre-PSP AMD system where the BIOS forcibly and irrecoverably disables the onboard graphics if a discrete GPU is found,
    Replacing that board is cheap.

    Like "not eat out one weekend" cheap.

    and it costs extra for an AMD motherboard that doesn't allocate PCI-E lanes on the assumption that you'll only need one of the two GPUs to perform ideally on a given boot.)
    Unless you are gaming with it, even a PCIe 2.0 x1 slot is enough for a secondary GPU. I know, I've been using the main (only) slot of a mini-itx for a PCIe-SAS card, and the actual GPU is connected to the M.2 slot through a ribbon adapter.

    Leave a comment:

  • ssokolow
    Senior Member

  • ssokolow
    replied
    Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post

    More proof that VMs with effective graphics API passthrough (ala VirGL) are the way to go to run legacy Windows stuff
    Are you going to be the one to pay for hardware and Windows licenses for everyone who only has one GPU and no license for a copy of Windows to run in the VM?

    (Bear in mind that "has a discrete GPU" doesn't mean that there's an onboard one lying fallow. I have a pre-PSP AMD system where the BIOS forcibly and irrecoverably disables the onboard graphics if a discrete GPU is found, AMD still offers CPUs in their list of products for purchase (as opposed to APUs), and it costs extra for an AMD motherboard that doesn't allocate PCI-E lanes on the assumption that you'll only need one of the two GPUs to perform ideally on a given boot.)

    Leave a comment:

  • starshipeleven
    Premium Supporter

  • starshipeleven
    replied
    Originally posted by Vistaus View Post

    Wayland support has stalled AFAIK: https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42284

    "It is very unlikely that Wine is going to support Wayland in the same way as X. I worked on a Wayland driver for Wine some time ago, but discontinued the idea because Wayland lacks many features that are expected by Windows programs. [...]
    The opinion from the Wayland developers is that you should stick to XWayland. The best solution Wine could offer, would be a virtual desktop that uses native Wayland. Not sure if it is worth the effort though."
    More proof that VMs with effective graphics API passthrough (ala VirGL) are the way to go to run legacy Windows stuff
    starshipeleven
    Premium Supporter
    Last edited by starshipeleven; 30 October 2019, 10:19 AM.

    Leave a comment:

  • starshipeleven
    Premium Supporter

  • starshipeleven
    replied
    Originally posted by Vasant1234 View Post
    So after 10+ years of development, you can barely show even 5% gaming improvement. I think it would be hard for anyone to claim this project as being a great success.
    depends from the goal, it was not aimed at improving stuff for gaming as the game is a fullscreen application anyway, it was supposed to be neutral to it.

    Leave a comment:

  • ssokolow
    Senior Member

  • ssokolow
    replied
    Originally posted by Neraxa View Post
    The big reason we were given for Wayland was that X.org was just way too slow so we needed to have developers spend years of time which could be spent on other things reinventing the wheel.

    Now that we know that this is a lie. what is the point of Wayland again?

    Don't say security, that could have been fixed with a very simple interwindow security permissions extension.

    Linux already had a perfectly useable and well designed Window system in X. I have looked at the X.org source code and could find nothing wrong with it. It just seems like a big excuse to reinvent the wheel. The X is bad nonsense is an urban tale that has been retold again and again, without basis in fact, to the point many people who say this really have no idea what they are talking about and just heard someone else say it on a message board and keep parroting it. Some of this started with Unix Haters Handbook, which is a long outdated book from 1988, almost everything in it is outdated, inaccurate or insignificant, which was meant as satire and even when it was written was knowingly inaccurate because it was not meant to taken too seriously. For instance, this was the origin of "X is big". Compared to what? The X servers size is quite small compared to Windows memory usage. Maybe X was big on 1988 hardware but any GUI system is going to be big on that hardware. On todays hardware 4 MB for the X server code is nothing. A similar thing has been happening with systemd. Almost none of what systemd-haters say about it is true. They just hear something on a message board and parrot it.

    So this whole Wayland effort was based on a big pile of lies. Its just astonishing a lie can lead to such massive exertions of energy and unnecessary labor and effort.
    I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Real Story Behind Wayland and X - Daniel Stone (linux.conf.au 2013)

    Well, that and "Wayland is X12. They just didn't want to call it X12 because that would make traditionalists even more mad that requirements for a display system have changed so much since X11."

    Leave a comment:

  • TheOne
    Senior Member

  • TheOne
    replied
    While I feel the same about Wayland that I feel about ReactOS (soo many years in development and still not decently usable for many use cases), this are actually some great news!
    TheOne
    Senior Member
    Last edited by TheOne; 29 October 2019, 06:49 PM.

    Leave a comment:

  • treba
    Senior Member

  • treba
    replied
    Originally posted by Neraxa View Post
    ...Don't say security, that could have been fixed with a very simple interwindow security permissions extension...
    Oh, why didn't you write it?

    Originally posted by Neraxa View Post
    ...I have looked at the X.org source code and could find nothing wrong with it. ...
    Have you worked on it? Have you tried to solve the problems Wayland does solve? If not, why do you think you're competent enough to judge any of this?

    Originally posted by Neraxa View Post
    ...Its just astonishing...
    ...how narcissistic somebody must be to think [s]he knows better about Xorg than all the people working on it.

    Leave a comment:

  • Vistaus
    Senior Member

  • Vistaus
    replied
    Originally posted by Britoid View Post

    Blame Nvidia, not Wayland.



    I believe Wayland support is planned for Wine afaik.

    I think the big blocker is under Wayland, clients can't draw to exact co-ordinates on the screen, which Wine/Windows uses for menus. This isn't important for games though and you could probably work around by translating co-ordinates.
    Wayland support has stalled AFAIK: https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42284

    "It is very unlikely that Wine is going to support Wayland in the same way as X. I worked on a Wayland driver for Wine some time ago, but discontinued the idea because Wayland lacks many features that are expected by Windows programs. [...]
    The opinion from the Wayland developers is that you should stick to XWayland. The best solution Wine could offer, would be a virtual desktop that uses native Wayland. Not sure if it is worth the effort though."

    Leave a comment:

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