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Waypipe Is Successfully Working For This Network-Transparent Wayland Apps/Games Proxy

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  • #21
    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post

    What a shame. Brute forcing a raster across, no matter how optimised it will be will never be great across a network; especially for large resolutions.
    But they aren't brute forcing roasters across; there is i.e. already support for frame deltas.
    Which is way better than what we have with remote-X1,when being used with gtk and Qt.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    It will also cause issue for VMs because the rendering will have to be done in software (or weak passthrough drivers).
    That's true, but I doubt there will be proper support, if your Toolkit won't support that use case, I. E. Gtk4 with remote Vulkan.

    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
    It will be interesting to measure this solution against X11 with a decent GUI toolkit. I imagine even Windows NT 4.0's old RDP implementation will blow them both out of the water.
    What would that decent Toolkit be? Motif? Modern ones like gtk+ and Qt transfer bitmaps over wire @ remote X11.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by oleid View Post
      What would that decent Toolkit be? Motif? Modern ones like gtk+ and Qt transfer bitmaps over wire @ remote X11.
      Frankly, they should start with one that does have a simple Motif-like fallback. Most businesses who require remote desktops aren't like little fat kids who need the flashy gimmicks; just plain raleigh-style grey boxes suffice (which is where Motif has still got a niche). At the very least a plain looking widget set will improve performance in backwards raster technology too (compresses better).

      Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
      What can screw over a video stream is inconsistent bandwith, i.e. you don't have enough bandwith to send over data fast enough to show, OR shitty connection, i.e. you lose data along the way.
      On youtube, you click the seek button to jump to a random part of the video. It lags until it buffers enough for smooth playback. Now imagine you do that every frame; roughly emulates a live stream. And don't give me that not enough bandwidth or "shitty connection" excuse. The only problem we have today is shitty solutions. I remember my old ISDN managing pretty well with RDP. Much better than with VNC on a current broadband.
      Last edited by kpedersen; 08-31-2019, 05:55 AM.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by oleid View Post
        What would that decent Toolkit be? Motif? Modern ones like gtk+ and Qt transfer bitmaps over wire @ remote X11.
        HTML5.

        Half-joking here.

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        • #24
          I never used remote X11 clients on my local server as I was never comfortable with the security model. I felt the remote system would have way too much access to my local system and desktop activity if I let it forward an X client.

          With the additional security brought by the Wayland protocol, I might finally be comfortable using remote client functionality. Hopefully the Waypipe devs are being very careful with their design and if necessary getting Wayland protocol changes made to ensure they can create a secure setup. Ideally I'd like to be able to connect to a compromised system and for that system to be able to present a window on my local Wayland/Waypipe compositor without my own local system or live state data being compromised or illegally accessed.

          Addendum: obviously I wouldn't deliberately connect to a compromised system from a system I wish to keep clean. In practice though this could easily happen. Anyway who manages remote systems may occasionally find that a remote system they have connected to has been compromised.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by cybertraveler View Post
            With the additional security brought by the Wayland protocol, I might finally be comfortable using remote client functionality. Hopefully the Waypipe devs are being very careful with their design and if necessary getting Wayland protocol changes made to ensure they can create a secure setup. Ideally I'd like to be able to connect to a compromised system and for that system to be able to present a window on my local Wayland/Waypipe compositor without my own local system or live state data being compromised or illegally accessed.
            That’s how Wayland works fundamentally. One Wayland client cannot access another client’s surface contents, in contrast to X11 [0]. The Waypipe proxy is a Wayland client like any other in this respect.

            [0] Ignoring security extensions which are difficult to set up and break common use cases.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by Tomin View Post

              HTML5.

              Half-joking here.
              Well, gtk+ has a html5 backend, and it's even more polished for gtk4. So that might indeed be a proper and fast solution.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
                On youtube, you click the seek button to jump to a random part of the video. It lags until it buffers enough for smooth playback. Now imagine you do that every frame; roughly emulates a live stream.
                Have you ever seen Youtube or Twitch livestreams or are you too old for that?

                No, jumping around like that doesn't emulate a live stream, with a live stream you are NOT sending over commands to the server asking "send over the video at X:XX point" and the server does not have to go and load that and send, and the client does not wait for playback until it has reached X amount of buffering.

                A live stream is the server sending over whatever is happening RIGHT NOW regardless. Any latency is just the travel time from the server to your system. No buffering is involved.

                On a livestream you don't buffer shit, if you receive faster than it can play for some reason the system drops frames and jumps to the latest thing it is receiving. Because it's trying to be LIVE, you know.

                And don't give me that not enough bandwidth or "shitty connection" excuse. The only problem we have today is shitty solutions. I remember my old ISDN managing pretty well with RDP. Much better than with VNC on a current broadband.
                Thanks for proving my point.
                At the time where ISDN was still a thing, RDP was still only capable of sending over rendered "screens" in a stream, like I said for most other applications used today.
                Your assumption that Waypipe must suck because it is working with frames (screens) and isn't rendering on the client is therefore proven wrong by your own memories.

                As a sidenote, VNC is not new by a long shot, and has always been a dumb and simple protocol. It's main selling point is its simplicity and low resource requirements, not its performance. It's great because it allows you to remote-control embedded crap and that's it, you don't expect a smooth experience.

                VNC lags even for controlling a VM over KVM from inside the same system (i.e. there is no ethernet involved), it's not a bandwith issue.
                Everyone that can do so is using Spice for that which is so much smarter, faster and better than VNC, even if it is technically still a modern remote desktop solution, sending over rendered frames https://www.spice-space.org/index.html

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                  At the time where ISDN was still a thing, RDP was still only capable of sending over rendered "screens" in a stream, like I said for most other applications used today.
                  Your assumption that Waypipe must suck because it is working with frames (screens) and isn't rendering on the client is therefore proven wrong by your own memories.
                  Thats not at all the case. Check out the rdesktop source (in particular protocol 4 for NT 4.0 TSE). You might also want to check out the SDL port because it is a bit easier to understand. https://soulsphere.org/hacks/rdesktop-sdl/

                  It is very clear (even from some of the bugs in the SDL port) that the instructions for components are sent rather than a naive raster. And it works very nicely (even to this day for digital preservation and running NT 4.0 at large resolutions).

                  You might want to check out how remote desktop systems work rather than just settling for a naive raster / youtube kind of solution.

                  Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                  Have you ever seen Youtube or Twitch livestreams or are you too old for that?
                  I'm beginning to think you are a bit too inexperienced to have known anything else.
                  Take it from me; this problem has already been solved and the direction that consumer Linux (not even Wayland particularly) is headed is actually a regression (for remote computing, though you kids probably only care about being able to run Steam games locally anyway).
                  Last edited by kpedersen; 08-31-2019, 09:32 AM.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
                    You might want to check out how remote desktop systems work rather than just settling for a naive raster / youtube kind of solution.
                    ...
                    Take it from me; this problem has already been solved and the direction that consumer Linux (not even Wayland particularly) is headed is actually a regression
                    That's the direction of most other software on Windows as well. I mostly remote-control stuff for work (as also said in other messages in my post history), it's rarely done through RDP, and even when I used it with a decent modern connection the performance isn't particularly different from others so I'm not really buying into its superiority (because I know that it can also send over frames, and I'm strongly suspecting that this is what they have been doing, regardless of what it can theoretically do).
                    At work I'm nearly always using Teamviewer/Anydesk/someCiscoStuff that the client has installed in the system.

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                    • #30
                      Awesome! I was looking for a project like this. I love the fact that it uses VAAPI, will have to install headless libva-intel-driver and give it a go.

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