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Fedora 30 Wayland vs. X.Org Graphics Benchmarks On GNOME Shell

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    oiaohm
    Senior Member

  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by debianxfce View Post
    So you agree that gnome3 is poorly designed and implemented, buggy, slow, not configurable easily and difficult to use. And it is masochistic to use that kind of a desktop. Let us stop here when we have this agreement.
    We both know that gnome should be as slow as hell. Due to horrible faults. But when you are seeing gnome wayland out benchmark xfce and it due to X11 server there problem xfce people have to admit is there.

    Reality is like or hate wayland it does show some serous problems in the x.org server when a light weight wm on X.org end up losing in particular benchmarks to a heavy wm gnome 3 on wayland.

    Not configurable easily is not exactly right. If you read the this
    https://eischmann.wordpress.com/2018...ll-extensions/

    Carefully one of gnomes worst problems is the fact is insanely re-configurable easy. You install extension in and it could decide to basically replace all the gnome shell javascript with it own.

    Poorly designed and implemented I have no arguement with. Lot of gnome3 as a R&D is fine as production boy its not suitable..

    Remember gnome 3 installing 1 extension and you can have reconfigured everything this is because the core that describes the interface is replaceable javascript. How often do you really want to change the complete interface in one hit. Most of the time never right. Remember gnome one wrong click on evil extension and you have reconfigured everything.

    Reality here is gnome 3 is too easy to configure totally badly. Too hard to configure exactly right.

    Xfce is not as configurable as gnome3 and this is a good thing. There is such thing as too much of a good thing.
    Xfce is in fact harder to do max reconfigure but simpler to do minor reconfigured. Again this is a good thing prevents you from instantly breaking your world and totally ruining your day.
    Xfce is designed for keyboard and mouse. Xfce not exactly great if you attempt to use it with touch.


    Xfce ok you cannot insanely reconfigure it. Extensions cannot in 1 hit change the world. If there was not the performance problem from the x.org server xfce would be perfect.

    But you cannot keep on just saying gnome is slow when you are going to hit problem that xfce is going to be slow due to x.org server vs wayland.

    The reasons to choose XFCE over gnome.
    1) XFCE is not as configurable as gnome 3 and this good. But what you can configure is easy to find and easy todo with xfce designed in ways not to blow your both feet off like gnome 3 can. Yes gnome3 dconf is really a nightmare along with the javascript reconfigure stuff of gnome 3 are both good ways to ruin your day.
    2) XFCE has lighter memory foot print.

    Those two points are solid points you can keep on winning with.
    oiaohm
    Senior Member
    Last edited by oiaohm; 09 May 2019, 07:22 AM.

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  • oiaohm
    Senior Member

  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by debianxfce View Post
    You can not change DPI with gnome3 easily. I did not find settings for that.
    https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/HiDPI#GNOME
    Its hidden way in the pits of dconf hell.

    Also to be horrible part of gnome design is that it include the ability for the package maker to screw up and hard set the DPI some versions of Ubuntu did do this. This is another example of too much flexibility.

    Originally posted by debianxfce View Post
    Gnome3 extensions are made with javascripit and are slow and use more RAM. Xfce plugins are made with C and are fast and use less RAM.
    This is part right and part wrong. If you read the gnome 3 documentation high suggests they are all javascript. You check out the extension site and it mix of javascript and python inside the extinctions ie some are javascript some are python.

    For a R&D desktop being in javascript/python for quickly and simpler changes to test out ideas is a good thing. But i would also like to see some C based extensions in gnome for reduced foot print. To improve R&D usage I would like to see support for scripting of some form as extension in XFCE.

    One of the interesting things is different parties have been benchmarking gnome3 look for java-script caused performance issues. One of the horrible realities is most of gnomes performance problems are in it C code. Stupid enough it some of the performance glitchs in the C code cause the javascript side to cpu spin and even if the plugin as in C it would be still cpu spin instead of being sane.

    Javascript most likely not helping but its not the be all and end of of Gnome internal problems.

    https://eischmann.wordpress.com/2018...ll-extensions/

    History of javascript in gnome it was put in to allow rapid prototyping and now it not being friendly. Problem its not just the javascript that is unfriendly. The DPI limitation issue is in C code.


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  • oiaohm
    Senior Member

  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by debianxfce View Post
    The default font in the Xfce desktop is larger than in gnome3 and you can navigate to Settings/Appearance/Fonts and set DPI to 192.
    Default font if you install straight from the gnome project is the same size as the Xfce one. Yes ubuntu manages to shot self in foot with it own default theme they apply. Thinking it their default desktop you kind of don't expect them to screw it up this bad but they have. Basically font think its a screw up that is not really main gnome project fault. Of course with distributions you have to expect 1 or 2 errors caused here or there to be a distributions stuff up.

    Originally posted by debianxfce View Post
    The Whisker menu is freely configurable and used in many distributions. It is in plugins of the Xfce desktop.
    There are third party plugins todo this to the gnome activities menu as well. Remember it a third party part it may not stay perfectly synced with Xfce as it upgrades as well. I like the fact gnome decided to provide a menu editor so you have one. This was annoying when Xfce got rid of their built in.

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  • oiaohm
    Senior Member

  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by debianxfce View Post
    I did test gnome3 with ubuntu live from a fast usb3 memory stick, I could not use the desktop because I could not see the default small font at 4K resolution. A full screen start menu is horrible in a 28 inch monitor. No easy way to use desktop launchers or change the activities menu. Gnome3 uses many times more RAM than Xfce for less functionality. It feels slow compared to Xfce with Ryzen 5 1600 and RX 570 as do win10. No hardware is enough fast to run gnome3, kde and win10 desktops. They all have a poor design and implementation.
    https://news.softpedia.com/news/gnom...t-522369.shtml
    Has have been with a out of date version of gnome because desktop launchers came back in 3.30.

    Ubuntu theming of gnome is horrible with a fixed theme not a dpi adjusting one(yes there are such gnome themes that do dpi adjust).. Yes a distribution could theme xfce also to be horrible on 4k monitor and that is not xfce fault either right.

    Being designed for touch is what make activities menu editing curse. Touch means not design well for right click
    https://wiki.debian.org/GnomeMenus
    Yep you want to edit activities menu its
    "System" -> "Preferences" -> "Main menu"
    Yep you can edit and delete the menu edit tool out the menu as well. This is over kill in the feature department.

    https://wiki.xfce.org/howto/customize-menu
    Newer versions of xfce loss it built in main menu editor and you have to use third parties. At last gnome does provide their own here. So current day gnome vs current day xfce on editing menu with only xfce or gnome parts gnome wins.

    I can see you have not used current versions of xfce to know what is gone.

    Originally posted by debianxfce View Post
    You can make the Xfce desktop look and feel what you want.
    You can make it look and feel what ever you want is why gnome is so memory heavy with all gnome javascript you can bend it to look like anything including the default xfce. Problem is all this lack of hard coding and dynamic coding comes at one hell of a memory and cpu foot print.

    Really we don't want highly dynamically changeable windows managers/compositors most of the time they are too resource hungry.

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  • cynical
    Senior Member

  • cynical
    replied
    Originally posted by debianxfce View Post

    When extensions are written with javascript, memory usage increases for each installed extension a lot. Extensions and the gnome3 desktop run slow too. Requiring to Install functionality that is built in other desktops is stupid. It is from hell to use the gnome3 desktop.
    Source: https://fosspost.org/lists/turn-gnom...ome-extensions
    Any runtime plugin system is going to consume more memory when you enable more plugins. That should be obvious. Let me fill you in on something: without JS, these kinds of runtime UI patching modifications would not even be possible. That's the advantage and drawback of the system. You gain the flexibility to alter Gnome in any way you like, but you pay a cost in resources. It has nothing to do with JS itself. QML is JS also but people only whine about Gnome apps because they hate Gnome and don't know much about JavaScript.

    When you say "these features should be built-in", which ones? What should the UI look like? What features should it have? Who should maintain the feature? What if we disagree on what is important? The plugin system is a great way to resolve this issue. You can choose as many or as few as you want and you are not disturbed by unnecessary clutter from what you don't use. Plus there is no burden on Gnome developers since they are independently maintained.

    The Gnome desktop is not slow for me. Works great on my 2015 era laptop. I have some extensions installed but not 40+ or anything like that. The resource usage will vary greatly depending on the plugin. A dock is obviously going to use more memory than a little bandwidth monitor, for example. If you like XFCE that is great, but can you customize it to look like Gnome 3? No you can't, because the UI is not coded to be flexible like that. Instead of these extensions you will have predefined panel items. If those are good enough then you will be happy. If not, you're out of luck. (I would not be happy in XFCE land)

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  • oiaohm
    Senior Member

  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by debianxfce View Post
    There is zero advantages in gnome3 and wayland compared to Xfce and X. Xorg developers have more work to do because of wayland and end users are having a buggy system. Gnome3 is driving the graphical desktop backwards, it is keyboard focused, not freely configurable, resource hog, buggy and slow.
    Sorry this is debainxfce living in denial. The worst wayland compostitor choice being Gnome 3 at this stage has high min framerates than X11 server without a windows manager using Nvidia drivers. So you add xfce you just in fact make matters of min frame performance even worse. This can be demonstrated in benchmarks repeatably.

    Gnome is highly mouse/touch focused in fact more to touch that is in the Human Interface Guidelines document
    https://developer.gnome.org/hig/stab...-input.html.en

    Being touched focused gnome does get horrible for us using keyboard and mouse because stack of stuff is oversized for finger tips so taking up more screen space. More stacking of menus and the like because of having to support fingers,

    Not freely configurable is also bull crap. Yes Gnome 3 once you can get into the dconf is very configurable. Problem due to everything being design for touch getting there can be quite deep click paths. Yes Click paths lacking keyboard short cuts at times so any claim of keyboard focused is total bull.

    Basically you just thrown stones while standing in a glass house debianxfce. X11 not on Wayland like it or not is badly broken by the third party drivers because they are using deprecated API/ABI with the result anything based on it is slow.

    I give resource hog and buggy are valid issues with gnome 3. But slow is subjective particular areas it running rings around the x11/xfce solution. I don't exactly blame xfce for this I would like to see a xfce wayland port most to get away from crappy closed source drivers messing with the X11 server so killing performance and in fact have something competitive. The fact that xfce is having it head handed to it repeatedly in benchmarks can only be ignored for so long.

    debianxfce how many times are you going to post this far incorrect only very basic research is required to prove you are completely wrong.


    .

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  • oiaohm
    Senior Member

  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by debianxfce View Post
    You must really believe in gnome3 and wayland to use them. 10 years under development and still under construction.
    Would help if you got your time frame right.

    Wayland started 2008 as weston. Gnome only starts with Wayland support in 2013. Gnome 3 is like the point vista/windows 7 was 5 years in. Yes the first 2 years of Windows 7 minor graphics glitches were turning up too.

    Yes the protocol and Weston have had 10 years of development this does not mean each compositor has had that long.

    Its not believe in Gnome at this point since middle of last year there have been advantages to the Wayland options.

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  • oiaohm
    Senior Member

  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by debianxfce View Post
    When there is wayland issues, who cares of wayland. Linux distributions are complex already and wayland is a feature that is not tested by game developers. Only true IBM believers game with a wayland desktop.
    LOL no I was not the one who started believing in Wayland desktop. Game players have.

    Yes Wayland has issues but who said X11 without wayland does not have issues.

    Yes those who play under gnome3 on wayland can spot the tell tail jitters in youtube videos. Next question why are people playing with gnome 3 wayland jitters. Hard reality is X11 without wayland dropping down to like 5 to 15 fps mins at times vs a sane 30+ min is way worse as it random and unpredictable..

    Yes those who don't play under gnome3 wayland think its normal X11 stalling just happening way to regularly.

    xwayland is X11 by the way. So game developers take the simple way out test for X11 and done.

    The reality most of the time with games you never play with drivers or configurations the game developer in fact used. So game developers testing or not testing under Wayland makes bugger all difference. The important question is are there gamers out there choosing Wayland desktops warts and all the answer is yes. Is choosing wayland desktops over a X11 desktops giving those gamers an experience they are liking the answer is yes. Could it be better than it currently is that is yes and if wayland desktops were working at best would they exceed best X11 ones it is yes again.

    If you want to look at cause of horrible stall in all things x.org server running straight on hardware you have to look no more than the closed source Nvidia X11 server driver due to it still using old parts from dri1 apis in x.org that no other driver still uses. Xwayland version of X11 server using EGLStreams for closed source nvidia is in fact using all modern X11 API.

    Yes in theory a pure X11 server not on top of wayland should stand a chance. But when the X11 server native configurations like the following you have problems.
    Code:
    Section "Device"
    Identifier "nvidia"
    Driver "nvidia"
    EndSection
    Result in X11 server using API/ABI that are deprecated due to known defects that make performance unstable its the other way over.

    Xwayland is all modern x.org API/ABI usage so even with a Nvidia card using xwayland by EGLStreams you don't have those historic gitches.

    Some ways if xwayland EGLStreams stuff could be made stock wayland and Nvidia move to just being a modesetting driver under x.org server things could be way better.

    Here is a good question why in hell does X.org server have a driver in userspace. Xwayland shows fairly much userspace of X11 could be a single userspace driver for modern cards.

    Kernel mode graphics drivers make sense since libglvnd was added to opengl and is part of vulkan out the box really the x.org usermode drivers are ceasing to make much sense since libglvnd happened. On most graphics cards x.org 2d acceleration is done by opengl calls if or if not a driver is loaded. You don't look to x11 to query what the graphics card is because notice the Identifier bit in the X11 configuration you can change that to what ever crap you want so cannot be trusted.

    Yes its a hard reality to wake up Nvidia and others are going to all these effort to make X11 server user-mode drivers only to really ruin the experience. The fact that what the graphics vendors are doing with their individual drivers for xorg ruins the experience is why xwayland can win.

    debianxfce basically there is more here than you are considering. You have completely missed how Nvidia and other vendors with xorg without wayland successfully shoot themselves in the foot. Wayland interface restrictions was hopefully to stop video card vendors shooting self in foot and give users a bad time.

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  • kaprikawn
    Senior Member

  • kaprikawn
    replied
    Originally posted by debianxfce View Post

    You are using X. No title and description at all in the video, the video is private and comments are disabled.
    Of course they are using X, it's XWayland, XWayland is X. Why do you think what a person puts in their title and description is connected to what technologies they are using?

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  • Brisse
    Senior Member

  • Brisse
    replied
    Originally posted by debianxfce View Post

    You are using X.
    Nope. Debian Sid, GNOME on Wayland, and recording with OBS-Studio which works fine for capturing xwayland surfaces, but doesn't work for native Wayland surfaces yet.

    You can even see the typical jitter issue that GNOME on Wayland has in the video if you know what to look for. It's quite obvious whenever the camera is panning. This is not a Wayland issue, but a GNOME on Wayland issue. There is no jitter when using Sway, although it has some issues of it's own, such as not being able to register a left mouse click while simultaneously holding down the right mouse button which makes many shooters unplayable.

    These are papercuts that will be fixed in due time. There is no reason why gaming on (x)Wayland can't be as good as pure X. Enough with the FUD debianxfce, it's getting tiresome.

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