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Wayland's Current Release Manager Is Stepping Down, Following Samsung's Open-Source Drama

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  • #21
    Originally posted by wagaf View Post
    Wayland is actually used and maintained by many industrials like automakers, planemakers etc..
    Please stop this nonsense!

    Planes are planned many years before they are even build. The software is written during the manufacturing (after the planning) time and are usually based on the technology that existed back that time. Wayland clearly doesn't belong in that timeframe.

    Same applies for military environments. Planes, Ships, other maritime vessels have a long, long, long, long planning, specification and implementation time. Software and Hardware have to remain intact for 20-40 years. And I can assure you. I have not yet seen any Wayland in these environments. Even the systems used around are quite old and yet they have to operate with the software provided there. And there is still no Wayland...

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    • #22
      Originally posted by Candy View Post
      Planes are planned many years before they are even build. The software is written during the manufacturing (after the planning) time and are usually based on the technology that existed back that time. Wayland clearly doesn't belong in that timeframe.
      Wayland isn't used for plane control and navigation systems but for infotainment systems (actually just like cars). These are usually designed and sold separately from the aircraft and have much shorter timeframes.

      FYI these industrials financed and developed Wayland for their own use.

      See for instance Automotive Grade Linux https://automotivelinux.org
      Last edited by wagaf; 04-06-2019, 11:21 AM.

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      • #23
        One could also point out that Wayland is used in production in the second most popular Linux distribution (after Android): Chrome OS.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by MrEcho View Post
          IMO I think the project tried to make everyone happy, and play nice with existing systems, Gnome / KDE. In doing so they pretty much tried to make the impossible.

          The only way I see a new GFX / Desktop GUI for Linux is to do it all in one. Server + Client + WM / Interface
          Really rethink the whole thing. With a lot of the GFX Cards now supported in the Kernel and or Mesa, it should make it easier. Also there is no need to do networking with a desktop, its pointless now days, the GUI is going to be on the same box as the GFX hardware, and if you need remote theres things for that. So that will solve a lot of the protocol issues.

          I think doing your own WM / Interface that no one would support out the gate would be an issue, and you would have to make some api wrappers to kind of get things kick started. But at the end I think a lot of apps would switch from Gnome and KDE to the new system. If you look at the eco system right now, some Gnome and KDE apps require you do load a whole crap load of other sub systems for them to work, so even right now its a mess.

          It would be even more work then what Wayland/Weston has done so far, but going into it as a full solution would make things easier. You could build a Desktop system that is still super flexible, but there would be core systems that you could not load a replacement. I look at OSX and Windows and what they provide for a desktop experience, yes both have general issues, but theres one way to do an desktop application, or theres one way to do a systray, or one way to show active applications. (yes I know windows is in a transition phase). I know the general Linux community hates 'one way' things, ex systemD. But I think its time to start thinking of doing the same thing for the Linux Desktop
          We don't need something new for that, as we already have that: it's called Arcan.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by wagaf View Post

            Wayland isn't used for plane control and navigation systems but for infotainment systems (actually just like cars). These are usually designed and sold separately from the aircraft and have much shorter timeframes.

            FYI these industrials financed and developed Wayland for their own use.

            See for instance Automotive Grade Linux https://automotivelinux.org
            Wait, wut? So Wayland works on QNX now? 'Cause QNX is currently the most popular OS for infotainment systems in cars.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by wagaf View Post
              One could also point out that Wayland is used in production in the second most popular Linux distribution (after Android): Chrome OS.
              You are spreading misinformation here. First with that automotive argument, and now with this. ChromeOS doesn't use Wayland, it uses Freon: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/15/0...1-on-chrome-os

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              • #27
                Originally posted by Vistaus View Post

                Wait, wut? So Wayland works on QNX now? 'Cause QNX is currently the most popular OS for infotainment systems in cars.
                Just pointing out some industries using and developing Wayland today.

                But I'm sure you will be able to name many other systems not using Wayland.
                Last edited by wagaf; 04-06-2019, 11:59 AM.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by Vistaus View Post

                  You are spreading misinformation here. First with that automotive argument, and now with this. ChromeOS doesn't use Wayland, it uses Freon: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/15/0...1-on-chrome-os
                  Your source to say I'm "spreading misinformation" is some old anonymous unsourced post on Slashdot (that even says Wayland support was actually planned) ?

                  Here are more recent Phoronix articles with citations of Google employees about how ChromeOS makes use of Wayland:
                  https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...ients-ChromeOS
                  https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...16-ARC-Wayland

                  Wayland is used given its state on Linux as the "de facto protocol for secure compositor communication by Linux apps", new interfaces being easily added, and existing Wayland clients/code provide good examples and test-cases. Reveman noted, "Offers maximum code reuse and minimizes the attack surface if we were to enable more generic container support."

                  Beyond the core Wayland protocol, ARC++ / Chromium is making use of some additional extensions: wp_viewporter, XDG_Shell, wl_drm, and zwp_linux_dmabuf_v1. There are also Chromium-focused Wayland interfaces for alpha compositing, gaming input (game-pads currently), additional Aura shell functionality to complement XDG_Shell, secure outputs, an on-screen stylus extension, and vsync feedback information.
                  Last edited by wagaf; 04-06-2019, 11:57 AM.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by wagaf View Post
                    Wayland is actually used and maintained by many industrials like automakers, planemakers etc. They have been the first users of Wayland and will keep using it as it's the best solution for their purposes.

                    Don't forget that desktop is not the primary use for GNU/Linux systems.
                    Most connected embedded systems are GNU/Linux-based and have been for a while now.

                    So I don't worry at all about the future of Wayland.

                    There is much less money to develop desktop use-cases for Wayland so these features are coming much slower but are mostly there now.
                    Hmm, I wonder which SOC's said automakers/planemakers/etc are using ?
                    As far as I know only the Broadcom SOC in the RPI has "some" support. Think the i.mx 8 might also have something in the works.

                    Are the rest of them using the software raster engine ?
                    Or soon to be removed frame buffer ?
                    Last edited by Raka555; 04-06-2019, 01:14 PM.

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Raka555 View Post

                      Hmm, I wonder which SOC's said automakers/planemakers/etc are using ?
                      As far as I know only the Broadcom SOC in the RPI has "some" support. Think the i.mx 8 might also have something in the works.

                      Are the rest of them using the software raster engine ?
                      Or soon to be removed frame buffer ?
                      See https://wiki.automotivelinux.org/agl...orted_hardware

                      Reference support:

                      Renesas R-Car M3
                      Atom E38xx
                      TI Jancinto 6

                      "Community" support:

                      NXP i.MX6
                      Qualcomm Snapdragon 410
                      Broadcomm 2836

                      Actual cars might use AGL with other chips, and other manufacturers also use Wayland outside of AGL.

                      AFAIK they mostly use the frame buffer.
                      Last edited by wagaf; 04-06-2019, 01:53 PM.

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