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Wayland-Protocols 1.15 Adds XDG-Decoration Protocol For Server-Side Window Decorations

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  • #51
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Set compositor to highest priority so all boarders get rendered correctly. Program you want performing is now effected by all programs you want in back ground. Its SSD right it rendering all windows boarders and is now responding to every programs draw requests.
    I don't see the problem.

    Especially when latency is concerned, you're not going to have thousands of borders to draw. In fact, very little, so it's completely insignificant.

    You bring corner cases and sure SSD is not for them but like I said 99.99999% users don't care about restricting with cgroup at all, and even less about "thousands of windows" DoS problem. (btw I did mention this "denial of service" which is a non-issue even if malware)

    If you really want isolation then use a proper VM.

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    • #52
      Originally posted by Weasel View Post
      Especially when latency is concerned, you're not going to have thousands of borders to draw. In fact, very little, so it's completely insignificant.
      Its a straw that breaks the camels back. As in it does not require much to cause problems. Really its not understanding problem.

      Originally posted by Weasel View Post
      You bring corner cases and sure SSD is not for them but like I said 99.99999% users don't care about restricting with cgroup at all, and even less about "thousands of windows" DoS problem. (btw I did mention this "denial of service" which is a non-issue even if malware).
      You are right users don't pay attention to the restrictions. Users are not required to set them and may not even be aware that they have been set then start complaining about problems. Please stop presuming this problem has to come from the user themselves. Weasel you are completely forgoing things like Feral Interactive gamemode. All user need to-do is load the application for application to start playing around with settings and if application set bias the wrong ways you will be looking at cpu/gpu starvation on the compositor..

      If application interactively sets bias you can be looking at the nightmare that CSD you live when another program requests a new window drawn but with SSD you die. 1 window not thousands when deal with highly biased systems.

      Users care that there games run well they don't ask how so game setting a bias in background as they don't care. Of course those making desktop environment have to worry about what application developers do to scheduler configuration as well as what user does. Also desktop environment makers have to care about what application developers and users will do in future. With X11 the application developers would not play with the scheduler too much because the would normally end up locking things up due to SSD. Now we have compositors with CSD as primary expect game developers and other high performance application developers to push this quite hard.

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      • #53
        Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
        Its a straw that breaks the camels back. As in it does not require much to cause problems. Really its not understanding problem.



        You are right users don't pay attention to the restrictions. Users are not required to set them and may not even be aware that they have been set then start complaining about problems. Please stop presuming this problem has to come from the user themselves. Weasel you are completely forgoing things like Feral Interactive gamemode. All user need to-do is load the application for application to start playing around with settings and if application set bias the wrong ways you will be looking at cpu/gpu starvation on the compositor..

        If application interactively sets bias you can be looking at the nightmare that CSD you live when another program requests a new window drawn but with SSD you die. 1 window not thousands when deal with highly biased systems.

        Users care that there games run well they don't ask how so game setting a bias in background as they don't care. Of course those making desktop environment have to worry about what application developers do to scheduler configuration as well as what user does. Also desktop environment makers have to care about what application developers and users will do in future. With X11 the application developers would not play with the scheduler too much because the would normally end up locking things up due to SSD. Now we have compositors with CSD as primary expect game developers and other high performance application developers to push this quite hard.
        Dude, if the game runs poorly, do you know what most gamers (who come from Windows) try to do? Exit unneeded applications in the background.

        They don't expect some magical setting to lower those apps' processing time or whatever other nonsense. (note that we're talking about applications with windows and GUIs here, not daemons, which have nothing to do with the compositor and SSD).

        Seriously you're making way too big of a deal out of nothing. It's not like CSD is going away, so you're arguing against SSDs for a thing that most people simply don't care about. On the other hand the benefit of SSDs is what those people care about.

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        • #54
          Originally posted by Weasel View Post
          Dude, if the game runs poorly, do you know what most gamers (who come from Windows) try to do? Exit unneeded applications in the background.
          Other than the fact what you suggest does not work under Linux.

          Feral Interactive Gamemode https://github.com/FeralInteractive/gamemode attempts to avoid staving other processes. But not all game developers will be this kind. Do notice Gamemode as you exit applications more cpu time gets directed to the game. So the MS Windows stunt of close unneeded applications will not work you have dynamic scheduler adjustments against you. If game under Linux is biasing scheduler presuming compositor is only doing CSD and your compositor is doing SSD you are screwed because even doing the games own window boarder decorations may be the straw that breaks the camels back. So a SSD wayland compositor still need ability to say hey application use CSD because something maybe you has claimed too much the cpu/gpu time so not leaving compositor with enough processing time to perform SSD.

          A wayland compositor may only have enough cpu/gpu time to process the compositing on screen and input filtering. Anything more is being lucky.

          Originally posted by Weasel View Post
          They don't expect some magical setting to lower those apps' processing time or whatever other nonsense. (note that we're talking about applications with windows and GUIs here, not daemons, which have nothing to do with the compositor and SSD).
          Exactly coming from MS Windows they are clueless what games and other applications requiring fast interactivity do under Linux.

          Originally posted by Weasel View Post
          Seriously you're making way too big of a deal out of nothing. It's not like CSD is going away, so you're arguing against SSDs for a thing that most people simply don't care about. On the other hand the benefit of SSDs is what those people care about.
          Really the reason for CSD is that wayland compositors are not promised they will not be staved for processing time.

          Now ms windows the parties drawing what people call SSD in fact take the window decoration drawing time out the processes allocated time slices. MS Windows has what people think is SSD but in operation it behaves like CSD you can notice this with high priority application on ms windows with a low priority one and notice when you drag low priority quickly at times how it picking up random blocks out the screen the full size of the window and there is no decorations. MS Windows is not using pure SSD. Pure SSD no matter how fast you dragged the window it boarders would be there.

          MS Windows is closer to CSD than SSD. Universal toolkit provided CSD is about as close as you could get to how MS WIndows without kernel modifications under Linux. To get closer you would have to add a system to scheduler that when application wants have its SSD drawn cpu/gpu time comes out of process time allocation. Getting a kernel change like this though will take a heck load of time.

          Those using MS Windows are more use to how a wayland CSD system responds in performance than an old X11 server SSD or wayland compositor SSD.

          Really those wanting SSD need to wake up there is a lot of work required to get SSD that is behaves right when you have programs heavily biasing the scheduler.

          Providing applications CSD allows wayland compositors to dig self out of hole a bit when staved. This is why KDE developers have include means to tell applications to switch from SSD to CSD. This is also why I don't care if CSD is a mix of non matched boarders. You are running long in SSD mode all your boarders match everything looks good. Problem happens where the game you just loaded has nicked off with way too much cpu/gpu time so staving the compositor and all your windows decorations now come miss matched. See its comes a clear error on screen that you have loaded a over greedy application. CSD support allows compositor to-do the best it can when the worst happens.

          One of the biggest issues for those coming to Linux from MS Windows is attempt to treat Linux exactly like MS Windows.

          Yes I know applications developers don't like that they will have to do window decorations. If they don't want to do that they need to work out some system for doing SSD that correctly takes that time out of the application allocated time slices that could take years to decades to be delivered.

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