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Weston Might Move To 4 Month Releases While Wayland's Maturity May Stop Timed Cycles

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  • #21
    Originally posted by davidbepo View Post

    well your second phrase is interesting, beacuse if wayland devs did really put much thought then desktops would have reached feature parity with Xorg, none has done that yet, gnome is the closest, but for example (and there are more) i cant run any app that doesn't support my current resolution, this matters for old games especially under wine, i think the problem is that wayland is designed for developers and not for end users, gparted not running because the root thing is another example
    Rome wasn't built in a day. Nobody (sane) will argue that Wayland currently has feature parity with Xorg. But the list of features it's lacking is dwindling constantly. So just because it isn't ready now, that means it's worthless? If it doesn't do something like play old games, just use Xorg for now.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by davidbepo View Post

      well your second phrase is interesting, beacuse if wayland devs did really put much thought then desktops would have reached feature parity with Xorg, none has done that yet, gnome is the closest, but for example (and there are more) i cant run any app that doesn't support my current resolution, this matters for old games especially under wine, i think the problem is that wayland is designed for developers and not for end users, gparted not running because the root thing is another example
      Are you sure your critic is really regarding Wayland? By reading your post it seems like most of the issues are Gnome issues. I use Plasma-Wayland since more than one year and for me it is really stable and I don't see the same issues there. Issues do exists, but not really more than with X11. Missing functions like remote desktop and screen recording are addressed now as well. What's not working well at the moment are games, XWayland introduced with xorg 1.20 several new bugs with fullscreen apps (e.g. crashes in F1 2017) and then the input doesn't work well (e.g. in Rise of the Tomb Raider, Tomb Raider or Ballistic Overkill), sometimes the mouse jumps or the cursors seems to be blocked, but I don't think this is the fault of Wayland itself.

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      • #23
        IMO Wayland Devs an possibly Weston devs need to do a release ONCE a Year, none of this twice a Year BS

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        • #24
          Originally posted by Anvil View Post
          IMO Wayland Devs an possibly Weston devs need to do a release ONCE a Year, none of this twice a Year BS
          Wayland the protocol could slow an update once a year.

          Once or twice a year is BS for software. Wayland and Weston developers are the same people. Software on the other hand should be targeting aleast about 4 releases a year. Why 4 its simple bit of maths. The longest security fault disclosure time frame 90 days. 365/90 is almost exactly 4. The shortest is roughly 45 days or 8 releases a year. So a release once a month on software would be good. This is one of the common problems people run into when they write the own software totally getting the maintainer-ship workload wrong software is not something that you can have a person work once a year on if you want it secure.

          So a release every 4 months for Weston is still way too slow.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
            Wayland the protocol could slow an update once a year.

            Once or twice a year is BS for software. Wayland and Weston developers are the same people. Software on the other hand should be targeting aleast about 4 releases a year. Why 4 its simple bit of maths. The longest security fault disclosure time frame 90 days. 365/90 is almost exactly 4. The shortest is roughly 45 days or 8 releases a year. So a release once a month on software would be good. This is one of the common problems people run into when they write the own software totally getting the maintainer-ship workload wrong software is not something that you can have a person work once a year on if you want it secure.

            So a release every 4 months for Weston is still way too slow.
            im fully aware its just a Protocol but what im saying is, if they just did 1 release a Year they'd get more Done kinda like XServer releases. you need STABILITY rather than More Releases, so once a Year is good enough IMO.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by Anvil View Post
              im fully aware its just a Protocol but what im saying is, if they just did 1 release a Year they'd get more Done kinda like XServer releases. you need STABILITY rather than More Releases, so once a Year is good enough IMO.
              Nothing like being clueless.
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Wind...elease_history

              Years of active improvement of X11 was the years of multi releases a year. Reality here is nasty. X11 protocol only stops updating once its declared that is going to be deprecated. So your idea of stability is choose the dead.

              The idea that more release is bad is garbage. Lack of good conformance suite so newer runs older no problems is the big problem. Also if older works applications can include fallback if they cannot find newer. So number of releases a year have nothing to-do with compatibility problems/Stability. Compatibility problems/stability is lack of Quality Assurance to make sure compatibility exists and functions.

              The reality is you could do a release every day and still have stability if you have good enough Quality Assurance.
              Last edited by oiaohm; 06-03-2018, 09:09 PM.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by shmerl View Post
                Wayland defines protocols, it's not providing their implementation on the compositor side. You aren't viewing Wayland in the manner of what it is.
                So if I want to code an app that takes a screenshot or integrates with other applications' windows, how do I do that with Wayland? For example let's say I want to port AutoHotkey to Linux. Very popular software and so on. Windows can do it, are you saying Wayland is worse than Windows and you find that a good thing?

                You see, I'm looking for a general solution that will work with any compositor, past and future, and one single code path, not 1 for each incompatible compositor implementing these features or if it even decides to implement them in the first place (not forced to by the protocol).

                Not everyone uses their computer like a fucking tablet like those Wayland developers seem to think in the name of their "pseudo security". If you don't trust an app then don't fucking run it as a privileged user (including access to your files) is that so hard? That has always been the security practice in any Unix not just Linux because it just works.

                Spying on other applications is not a security exploit it's a ESSENTIAL FEATURE of many workflows and I personally don't give a shit of some Wayland developer who thinks he knows best what their users want to use their PC for, just because they use it like a tablet.

                This ought to be part of the protocol so that you, as a developer (and a user), have a clear path to code against these essential features, and know they will continue to work 5, 10, 20 years from now as long as the protocol is respected. Not have it stop working because the compositors you coded against were abandoned and new ones implement them differently (or at all), yay for fragmentation?
                Last edited by Weasel; 06-04-2018, 08:00 AM.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by kaprikawn View Post
                  When people critisize Wayland, they talk as if the Wayland devs didn't put much thought into everything and just made it up as they went along.
                  Mmmh, not quite please read what the Arcan dev says about Wayland: https://arcan-fe.com/2017/12/24/cras...d-compositing/ https://arcan-fe.com/2018/01/27/argu...e-decorations/ he isn't especially impressed..


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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
                    So if I want to code an app that takes a screenshot or integrates with other applications' windows, how do I do that with Wayland? For example let's say I want to port AutoHotkey to Linux. Very popular software and so on. Windows can do it, are you saying Wayland is worse than Windows and you find that a good thing?
                    Really AutoHotkey works under windows by using accessibility features.
                    https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Accessibility/
                    Interesting enough Accessibility support does not depend on X11 or Wayland running under Linux. So this was not a wayland problem at all.

                    This is why you need to rethink things.

                    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
                    Spying on other applications is not a security exploit it's a ESSENTIAL FEATURE of many workflows and I personally don't give a shit of some Wayland developer who thinks he knows best what their users want to use their PC for, just because they use it like a tablet.
                    Yes spying on other applications is part of doing disability support under Accessibility. Why do we need X11 server, Wayland and accessibility interfaces providing the same things. Now if everyone is using accessibility maybe we will have a system that works right.

                    Originally posted by Weasel View Post
                    This ought to be part of the protocol so that you, as a developer (and a user), have a clear path to code against these essential features, and know they will continue to work 5, 10, 20 years from now as long as the protocol is respected. Not have it stop working because the compositors you coded against were abandoned and new ones implement them differently (or at all), yay for fragmentation?
                    When something is already part of another protocol applications should support why should wayland protocol duplicate it???? Yes by law in many countries you application should have Accessibility support.

                    Wayland is provide a lot cleaner path. If something is not in wayland protocol more often than not there is a different protocol like Accessibility you should be using.


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                    • #30
                      You know, calling it "accessibility" doesn't somehow make it sound like only a minority of handicapped people are going to use it. As if names matter. This is about power users who want to customize and enhance their desktop experience, as that's what AutoHotkey is mostly used for. The point is that such features being unavailable only in Wayland truly speaks volumes about how crappy it actually is designed.

                      Wayland is full of dumb decisions made my incompetents. Look at client-sided decorations as another example. Literally no other system that's worth its salt has chosen that route. Not Windows, not Linux with Xorg/X11, not even macOS. But Wayland has to be different because clearly everyone else is wrong right?

                      And yet Wayland devs were so adamant on it that they banned discussions about it from their IRC channel. How fucking close minded can you be? It's actually more sensible to request features to Microsoft and expect them to be implemented with 1% chance, than to try to contribute or suggest to most of these "open source" projects from fd.o, redhat, wayland, gnome, etc. Cancer ecosystem. And let's not forget about systemd but this is not the thread for it.

                      Which is why "patches welcome" only applies to sane open source projects, others can fuck off. They won't even accept contributions that stray from their idiotic "vision", much less suggestions.

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