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XWayland Gets Patches For Better EGLStreams Handling

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  • XWayland Gets Patches For Better EGLStreams Handling

    Phoronix: XWayland Gets Patches For Better EGLStreams Handling

    While the recently released X.Org Server 1.20 has initial support for XWayland with EGLStreams so X11 applications/games on Wayland can still benefit from hardware acceleration, in its current state it doesn't integrate too well with Wayland desktop compositors wishing to support it. That's changing with a new patch series...

    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...ter-EGLStreams

  • #2
    I'm really not fond of 3rd party devs creating patches to accommodate Nvidia's negligence. But... the consumer shouldn't have to suffer as a result, so, it's nice that Fourdan is supporting them where possible. Sometimes following your principles doesn't make progress.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
      I'm really not fond of 3rd party devs creating patches to accommodate Nvidia's negligence. But... the consumer shouldn't have to suffer as a result, so, it's nice that Fourdan is supporting them where possible. Sometimes following your principles doesn't make progress.
      You are been logical and a sane person.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
        Sometimes following your principles doesn't make progress.
        I understand where you're coming from on this, but if you don't follow your principles, then you don't really have any. Either you have them and live by them, or you don't. There is no middle ground.

        Again, that being said, I understand why concessions are being made. I personally don't support them, but I understand why many people do ...

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        • #5
          Originally posted by sa666666 View Post
          I understand where you're coming from on this, but if you don't follow your principles, then you don't really have any. Either you have them and live by them, or you don't. There is no middle ground.
          I very much agree. That being said, if I were in Fourdan's shoes, I would not have worked on this. Despite that, I don't necessarily have a problem with him that he did. I prefer that he didn't, but the consumer is the one who gets hurt the most. Sometimes there's more important things than being right.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
            I very much agree. That being said, if I were in Fourdan's shoes, I would not have worked on this. Despite that, I don't necessarily have a problem with him that he did. I prefer that he didn't, but the consumer is the one who gets hurt the most. Sometimes there's more important things than being right.
            X has been the underlying technology for the Linux desktop for decades, Wayland looks set to replace it, possibly for the next few decades. One of the principle drivers to Wayland is that X has become a monstrosity of dirty hacks and workarounds on top of an unmanageable codebase, Wayland is the clean slate that is desperately needed to simplify everything onto something that has a line count that is a fraction of that of X.

            Wayland isn't ready for the primetime yet, but it's already being fractured into something that requires more code than is necessary to appease Nvidia being dicks. This capitulation chips away at one of the main advantages of Wayland, that it's an easier target to develop because it's codebase isn't a mess.

            Who says this isn't going to hurt the consumer, that EGL streams makes Wayland less capable of delivering on it's promise to modernise the Linux desktop graphics stack?

            Whether or not to support EGL streams feels like a game of chicken to me. Do the devs hold to their guns, screw Nvidia blob users in the short term and force Nvidia to support GBM (with the possibility that Nvidia stick to their guns and just don't, with the possibility that leaves Nvidia users stuck on X for ever more)? Or do the devs crack first, and commit to supporting two implementations so as to include Nvidia blob users and hope that speeds up the adoption of Wayland?

            Well it seems RH/Gnome blinked first, but I'm with the KDE and Sway devs on this one. I think it's up to Nvidia to support Wayland, not vice versa.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
              But... the consumer shouldn't have to suffer as a result, so, it's nice that Fourdan is supporting them where possible.
              This is a cool-sounding but total bullshit argument, "the consumer shouldn't have to suffer" can be applied both ways.

              By letting NVIDIA win he is causing suffering in users that can't use other DEs with NVIDIA cards, and worse, it validates NVIDIA's default behaviour of doing the fuck they want and force others to adapt or fuck off, which again causes user suffering.

              Besides, he is a Red Hat employee, and RH can't really say they don't support NVIDIA cards on their own distro running their own DE.

              Sometimes following your principles doesn't make progress.
              And this is not one of those times, NVIDIA didn't learn anything and is just getting a free pass.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by kaprikawn View Post
                Wayland isn't ready for the primetime yet, but it's already being fractured into something that requires more code than is necessary to appease Nvidia being dicks. This capitulation chips away at one of the main advantages of Wayland, that it's an easier target to develop because it's codebase isn't a mess.

                Who says this isn't going to hurt the consumer, that EGL streams makes Wayland less capable of delivering on it's promise to modernise the Linux desktop graphics stack?
                Very good point - I hadn't really thought that far ahead, because I felt picking up Nvidia's slack was enough of a problem in of itself.
                Whether or not to support EGL streams feels like a game of chicken to me. Do the devs hold to their guns, screw Nvidia blob users in the short term and force Nvidia to support GBM (with the possibility that Nvidia stick to their guns and just don't, with the possibility that leaves Nvidia users stuck on X for ever more)? Or do the devs crack first, and commit to supporting two implementations so as to include Nvidia blob users and hope that speeds up the adoption of Wayland?
                The unfortunate reality is Nvidia was never going to do anything about this. Unless AMD manages to pull majority Linux marketshare, Nvidia will do things their way, just like they always have. Their old slogan of "Nvidia: the way it's meant to be played" was not just a catchphrase, but literally how they approach those who seek their products. It is this stubbornness why Torvalds was fed up with them. They make great products and for the most part they know what they're doing, but they're not very compliant.
                All that being said, if the Wayland devs stuck to their guns, they would've lost. Nvidia carries too much of the market, so having compatibility issues with them is a major blow to Wayland. So, it's not an easy decision: go against the grain, or be left behind collecting dust.
                Well it seems RH/Gnome blinked first, but I'm with the KDE and Sway devs on this one. I think it's up to Nvidia to support Wayland, not vice versa.
                I 100% agree.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                  By letting NVIDIA win he is causing suffering in users that can't use other DEs with NVIDIA cards, and worse, it validates NVIDIA's default behaviour of doing the fuck they want and force others to adapt or fuck off, which again causes user suffering.
                  I totally agree. But there's really no winning solution here:
                  1. Nvidia will not comply, regardless of how much pressure you put on them. Desktop Linux isn't profitable enough for them to care. If you disagree, Nvidia is so stubborn, they no longer have their products sold in Macs, due to their feud with Apple. Sure, you can still buy an Nvidia GPU for Macs, but let's be real here: how many Mac users do you know open up their computers for such upgrades? Macs are definitely a larger marketshare than desktop Linux, and Nvidia seemed a little too willing to give it up to hold onto their principles.
                  2. If the Wayland devs held their ground, they'd be left behind and would lose traction. Nvidia controls too much of the GPU marketshare to simply ignore.
                  3. By catering to Nvidia's laziness, the Wayland devs get more users access, but in turn they tarnish what makes Wayland "pure" and they encourage Nvidia's unacceptable activities (or lack thereof).

                  None of this is good. It's all terrible and there's nothing we can do about it. So, since Nvidia's negligence is indefinite and unwavering, what else can be done without hurting the progress of Wayland?


                  The way I see it, as long as this patch can be removed in the future without causing regressions, I think it's the best course of action for the sake of Wayland and Nvidia users, despite the fact it shouldn't have been made.
                  Last edited by schmidtbag; 05-24-2018, 03:22 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
                    I totally agree. But there's really no winning solution here:
                    Sure, you can still buy an Nvidia GPU for Macs, but let's be real here: how many Mac users do you know open up their computers for such upgrades? .
                    Um, no. Not really. MacBooks have soldered GPU, Mac Mini also soldered, Mac Pro uses some proprietary kind of MXM that only AMD semi-custom product, no NVDIA. iMac is also soldered. There is no way to put NVIDIA GPU in any current Mac, as far as I know.

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