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  • Originally posted by duby229 View Post
    You know repeating the same false premise is just as wrong the subsequent times right? Go ahead, use nVidia's driver, nobody is stopping you. You can't use wayland even if you wanted to, You can use an X desktop, but it's gonna be a real shitty experience, lag fest and tearing extravaganza. And lets consider what happens when you want to use a second monitor....
    Do you know anything about all this shit? You can boot to gnome wayland session with nvidia blob kms enabled. You won't get working glx on xwayland, but everything else will work. I haven't seen any tearing. According to previous posts, it was fixed after 304 drivers.
    But nain thing is this: Imagine, you are a kde user with a nvidia card. And now is something about 2020, so plasma on wayland in production ready state. And neither Matrin nor Nvidia stepped back. What will you, being sane person, will sacrifice? You won't drop kde. You won't replace videocard. You will drop wayland. That's why xwayland implements nvidia glx support, they can pose saying "we will never accept nvidia patches for weston", but they know who will loose more without accelerated xwayland".
    Originally posted by duby229 View Post
    The real fact of the matter is that AMD's OSS driver is more complete that nVidia's driver ever was. And r600 class hardware has been at least since something like 2009, and GCN hardware since at least 2012.
    there is a famous RadeonFeature wiki on freedesktop site. You can browse its history and see that my former evergreen card got opengl 4.x support with opensource driver something around December 2015. When every sane person already throwed this card away. Also, you can google for gallium-nine, and you will find refusal to merge this code to main wine branch with words "just fix opengl performance and you will get same performance without gallium-nine".

    Comment


    • Originally posted by cybertraveler View Post

      Sounds like another strawman. I don't think there is any significant protest against OpenGL implementations not created within Mesa. I haven't noticed any complaints about this myself. This is not what the complaints are about.
      ...
      I will start purchasing, supporting and promoting Nvidia hardware when ... and when they shift their focus from their proprietary driver to an Open Source driver that integrates well with the GNU/Linux ecosystem.
      Pal, stick to one version for at least one post. "Strawman"
      You ARE complaining about they don't cooperate with nouveau team.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MartinN View Post
        NVidia is like the student who does the minimum to get a passing grade in this course of FOSS, and moreover would also resort to cheating by stealing other people's work or expect others to do their work for them out of pity... except most folk in FOSS are exquisitely intelligent and see right through NVidia's bullcrap and will have none of it.... FOSS -is BIGGER- than NVidia and will outlast them and many others like them or even better entities than them.
        .
        Do you really believe NVidia ever attended to these classes? No. They just producing and selling videocards to people who want nice opengl performance. An actual passing grade student is you. You are telling stories about bright opensource future but still use nonfree hardware. GNU site has a list of "ethical" distros and hardware sertification program. Look there, chances are that neither your PC nor your linux is "ethical".

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        • Originally posted by Khrundel View Post
          Do you really believe NVidia ever attended to these classes? No. They just producing and selling videocards to people who want nice opengl performance. An actual passing grade student is you. You are telling stories about bright opensource future but still use nonfree hardware. GNU site has a list of "ethical" distros and hardware sertification program. Look there, chances are that neither your PC nor your linux is "ethical".
          oh, you want perfection... well, welcome to neverland.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Khrundel View Post
            Pal, stick to one version for at least one post. "Strawman"
            You ARE complaining about they don't cooperate with nouveau team.
            You're re-wording and re-framing my comments.

            One of my complaints is that they don't release signed, legally-usable firmware for use with their latest cards in a prompt manor. I don't require that they co-operate with the nouveau team specifically. It just so happens that nouveau is the biggest effort to make an Open Source driver for their card and the lack of firmware badly effects the nouveau effort to do this. I made it very clear that if they made their own non-Mesa Open Source driver I'd support them.

            If your take-away from everything I've said is that "NVidia should work with nouveau" then you have poor reading comprehension or you're being deliberately disingenuous. Considering you're the guy that claimed that we should be thanking Nvidia for evolving Open Source, I'm going to go with the latter. You're like a slimy politician, twisting words, setting up strawman arguments and using sophistry to argue your points. I wont respond further to your posts in this thread because you are dishonest.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by PackRat View Post

              Debian Linux kernels named after Toy story characters made by Pixar were made with proprietary software on sgi workstations. Irix is gone and has been replaced with GNU/Linux and
              Mesa 1.0 3D graphics library has replaced: " SGI had asked me not to use the terms "Open" or "GL" " https://mesa3d.org/intro.html . Opensource won, but the proprietary 3d software
              now just runs on GNU/Linux. Even Blender relies on Cuda more then Opencl. Opencl did not even work for the longest time and Amd had to split the kernel for it to work: https://developer.blender.org/T44197 . I have been very very patient with "Opensource" solutions. Then my fglrx driver was taken away along with the opencl that came with that driver.I have another machine with nvidia proprietary driver and cuda/opencl and you cybertraveler and others want to pull the rug from under my feet once again?
              Individual people and organisations can do what they want. I wouldn't argue against that unless they are using aggression against people. I don't care what Pixar do with their time and money. I'm just telling you what I support and what GNU/Linux and the Open Source/Free Software cultures are about.

              What do you mean your fglrx driver was taken away? If you had a distro installed on some hardware with a working fglrx setup, unless someone broke into your house to rob you, no one took it away. What probably happened was that a bunch of people in the Open Source environment didn't want to work for free to maintain compatibility with that proprietary binary as other parts of the greater system were improved. AMD probably also didn't want to put in the work to maintain it. No one took it from you. Your OEM just dropped support (like we've been telling you happens all the time and which Open Source goes along way towards solving) and Open Source devs don't want to slave away to work on things which are counter to their own interests.

              It's amazing that you are taking an issue that mostly occurs with proprietary software and you are blaming it on Open Source. It's the opposite. You have some proprietary software that has gone out of support. Had that been an Open Source driver from the start, then you would have almost certainly had zero issues. Everyone interested in that driver would have kept it working as the platform changed and improved. Things change: Open Source drivers can be updated with often minimal effort to keep up with the changes. Proprietary drivers can only be updated by the OEM.

              It sounds like you've now repeated your mistake and bought Nvidia hardware for use with a GNU/Linux system. You know that you're going to have problems with it in the future and the AMD owners are all going to be fine. Now you're out there blaming the people who have been trying to help people like you.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Khrundel View Post
                Do you know anything about all this shit? You can boot to gnome wayland session with nvidia blob kms enabled. You won't get working glx on xwayland, but everything else will work. I haven't seen any tearing. According to previous posts, it was fixed after 304 drivers.
                But nain thing is this: Imagine, you are a kde user with a nvidia card. And now is something about 2020, so plasma on wayland in production ready state. And neither Matrin nor Nvidia stepped back. What will you, being sane person, will sacrifice? You won't drop kde. You won't replace videocard. You will drop wayland. That's why xwayland implements nvidia glx support, they can pose saying "we will never accept nvidia patches for weston", but they know who will loose more without accelerated xwayland".
                there is a famous RadeonFeature wiki on freedesktop site. You can browse its history and see that my former evergreen card got opengl 4.x support with opensource driver something around December 2015. When every sane person already throwed this card away. Also, you can google for gallium-nine, and you will find refusal to merge this code to main wine branch with words "just fix opengl performance and you will get same performance without gallium-nine".
                Yeah, and every other sane person here also knows it had -every single- GL extension games were using long before that. And you got your interpretation of gallium nine all entirely wrong. You don't have a clue what your talking about.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by cybertraveler View Post

                  Individual people and organisations can do what they want. I wouldn't argue against that unless they are using aggression against people. I don't care what Pixar do with their time and money. I'm just telling you what I support and what GNU/Linux and the Open Source/Free Software cultures are about.

                  What do you mean your fglrx driver was taken away? If you had a distro installed on some hardware with a working fglrx setup, unless someone broke into your house to rob you, no one took it away. What probably happened was that a bunch of people in the Open Source environment didn't want to work for free to maintain compatibility with that proprietary binary as other parts of the greater system were improved. AMD probably also didn't want to put in the work to maintain it. No one took it from you. Your OEM just dropped support (like we've been telling you happens all the time and which Open Source goes along way towards solving) and Open Source devs don't want to slave away to work on things which are counter to their own interests.

                  It's amazing that you are taking an issue that mostly occurs with proprietary software and you are blaming it on Open Source. It's the opposite. You have some proprietary software that has gone out of support. Had that been an Open Source driver from the start, then you would have almost certainly had zero issues. Everyone interested in that driver would have kept it working as the platform changed and improved. Things change: Open Source drivers can be updated with often minimal effort to keep up with the changes. Proprietary drivers can only be updated by the OEM.

                  It sounds like you've now repeated your mistake and bought Nvidia hardware for use with a GNU/Linux system. You know that you're going to have problems with it in the future and the AMD owners are all going to be fine. Now you're out there blaming the people who have been trying to help people like you.
                  "AMD probably also didn't want to put in the work to maintain it" Ya I know Amd has got better things to do like making drivers for ethereal miners... Buy Amd again, I'll get right on that with ethereal mining driving up cost of gpu's. I wish Intel would make a discrete gpu card that would be cool.
                  Hmm.. I thought Pixar was a good example of a company successfully changing proprietary software (Irix) to opensource (GNU/Linux).

                  I did not buy Nvidia hardware I got Geforce 660 and 460 for free from people that upgraded. Buying Amd was the mistake well at least the wrong cards I guess. Blender 2.79 has now dropped support for gcn 1 and also requires opencl 2 now meanwhile I can use a geforce 460 with cuda: https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/d...rendering.html
                  A geforce 460 from 2010 works but a Amd radeon 280x from 2013 does not. I don't know if this is a technical limitation or simply that no one maintains it. Cuda works opencl 1.2 does not. If cuda was dropped then cpu rendering will work.

                  I don't blame Open source I blame Amd. "Future and the AMD owners are all going to be fine" Ya newer cards should be ok. Maybe if Nvidia open sourced the driver they could just have Cuda as a 'module' like the amdgpu-pro.

                  We will see what the future holds. I understand dev's not wanting to maintain legacy code like x. Sorry if I offended anyone I'll try and behave.




















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                  • Originally posted by PackRat View Post
                    I wish Intel would make a discrete gpu card that would be cool.
                    I'd also really love for Intel to get into the discrete GPU market in a big way.

                    It would be even better if some other big player joined the scene. I'm glad that gamers have Nvidia and AMD, but I'd prefer it if there was even more competition.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by polarathene View Post
                      not sure how much better that is with AMD dGPU(you still have to run a command to have some apps use the dGPU while everything else runs on iGPU don't you?)
                      Originally posted by polarathene View Post
                      Uhh... I thought we're talking about nvidia here, specifically their Optimus support with Intel iGPU and dGPU on laptops?
                      Not about Optimus, as you can see in quote above.
                      Originally posted by polarathene View Post
                      I think these days DRI_PRIME support might be better? I thought that was more for the open-source drivers though than nvidia's proprietary driver? Sorry for the wrong assumption?
                      Yes, yes, and yes.
                      Originally posted by polarathene View Post
                      I guess I failed to get my point across here? Ok great, I tried to use an inability to replace/upgrade RAM in a system as an alternative example of this and that in time that it could require you to get a new laptop or make new choices/sacrifices in software/DE decisions. I get that in your particularly case that may not apply....but you get the point?
                      Don't worry, I get what you talking about, but you missing the fact that software developers have to take into account modern unupgradeable mobile hardware with low amount of RAM, like most of Intel BayTrail/CherryTrail tablets and laptops. For example for next few years Gnome developers have to take into account hardware of Purism Librem 5 with low-power ARM CPU and probably 4 GB RAM. Hence low system requirements that allow ten years old desktop or laptop remain usable in foreseeable future (unless vendor doing planned obsolescence and stop producing usable drivers).
                      Originally posted by polarathene View Post
                      If you buy hardware in a product that comes with a different OS and is intended that was as the product, as in that is specifically what the vendor is supporting officially(if they endorse Linux support specifically in that actual product not just their hardware, different story)... Then I don't get how you're complaining is justified, it just so happens your GPU works with their proprietary driver on Linux up to a certain point. Did the support end on Windows too for the nvidia hardware? Had the warranty expired since? Is nvidia legally going against the terms of support they have with that product to you as the customer? I'm going to say no. Not sure how that's treating the customer bad? Plenty of businesses operate that way, if I was expected to offer support to all my clients, unpaid time for an eternity I don't think that's going to work out well for me? You bought the product with fixed terms of support(if any).
                      You see, as a customer, I does not care about warranty, legal obligation, and who else operate in the same way. Nothing of this means that I should buy shit that stop get fixes in a few years. So I give my money to vendor that better supported by software I run, and encourage other people who happen to use same software to doing same thing. If some other vendor hurt my wallet in some way - I speak about it, loudly. See anything illogical in my words or in my actions?
                      Originally posted by polarathene View Post
                      The fact that it works better with another vendor like AMD, is a positive for those vendors. All the more reason to go with them over those whom don't. But it doesn't mean the other vendors that don't have as great support are bad if they're not required to.
                      As I said on page seven "Such business practices should be called out, and potential customers should be warned before purchase."
                      Originally posted by polarathene View Post
                      It's not that nvidia hasn't tried to make Wayland support a possibility. It's just other developers are not interested in supporting their approach. That's cool, don't support it, leave that to nvidia to work on resolving. Afaik, they are working on resolving that with current open-source projects, actively trying to engage with the community for feedback and work with the GBM devs for the better of everyone.. How's that bad?
                      They kinda late, you know, and now they trying to make their fault everyone else problem - this is bad. We have this conversation about Wayland and nvidia, exactly because nvidia failed.
                      Originally posted by polarathene View Post
                      Is Wayland in a good state that having nvidia driver support would be good? From what I've seen Wayland is still rough around the edges and I wouldn't personally use it yet.
                      Good enough for office tasks. Hopefully will be good enough for tablet usage when Onboard get ported to Wayland.
                      Originally posted by polarathene View Post
                      I'm not familiar with it Perhaps it was before my time on Linux when AMD GPU wasn't in too good of a state as it is today?
                      Timing is not the point here. The point is - there always some technology related to desktop or laptop usage, that not properly supported by nvidia - be it xrandr 1.2, rendering offloading or Wayland. And since their
                      Originally posted by polarathene View Post
                      hardware that isn't as well suited for most on Linux
                      I pretty sure that this is not going to change.

                      Originally posted by Khrundel View Post
                      You won't replace videocard.
                      But when time to upgrade come - one will look into other options. I did, no regrets.

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