Apple Proposing A New, Lower-Level Graphics API For The Web

[name99]

LLVM? OpenCL? WebKit? (The last one maybe not ok)

Apart from that, why do we need a new API? What is the problem with simply reusing Vulkan?

Where is this mythical WebVulkan you are pushing? Who has implemented it? Who has validated its security model?
You do understand the issue is 3D IN THE BROWSER right?
The issue has nothing to do with Vulkan vs Metal, just as it has nothing to do with nV vs AMD. It has to do with JS bindings, security models, interaction with the DOM and other WEB-LIKE issues...

https://owentertainment.biz/2016/03/12/will-vulcan-affect-vr/

[name99]

did apple ever give a valid, logical reason why they ditched vulkan and created their own in house metal api?

Well there is the reason that Metal came first, years before Vulkan. (Metal released June 2104, probably in development for at least two years before release; Vulkan released Feb 2016).
So it's not exactly like they had some Vulkan prototype that they ditched...

I expect the way events actually played out was
- three years of Apple goes to Khronos, say GL sux, how about a better API?
- Khronos (dominated by ancient companies with a huge investment in GL) keeps saying no.
- Apple says "well to hell with you, we'll create our own API"
- Khronos says "go right ahead, no-one cares"
- Two years later Khronos realizes "oops, maybe they were actually right about GL kinda sucking for the 21st C"

You think this is unfair? The entire history of Apple is that they are willing to ditch compatibility with the past before most other companies --- and then five years later have everyone claim that the change was "inevitable" and Apple had nothing to do with it. We saw it with the app store and a somewhat new development model.
We are seeing this right now with the aux jack and the switch to wireless headphones, with the transition tor USB-C, and in the smartwatch space.

Same thing happens with developer tools. That's why they created their own language, so they aren't slowed down by the snail's pace evolution of C++, and the enforced backward compatibility of sticking with Objective C. That's why they deprecate APIs and introduce replacements at a much faster pace than MS or Linux.

[name99]

Well that would explain why nobody uses OpenCL

And there you have the Apple - Linux relationship in a nutshell.

Linux - "Why doesn't Apple ever release anything to the world that we can use?"
Apple - "How about OpenCL?"
Linux - "OpenCL sux because it comes from Apple"
Apple - "Uhh, I think you just answered your own question"

There is obviously no point in Apple even TRYING to play nice with the Linux crowd. They hate LLVM not on technical grounds but because it is "tainted" by Apple participation. They hate OpenCL for the same reason. Every time Apple suggests an improvement to web specs, they hate the idea blind, before they even have a clue what is being suggested and why --- this thread is a perfect example.
And then they are amazed that Apple makes no effort to support whatever insane thing they are demanding this week...

[theriddick]

OR just use current standards like a normal company..... But nope. Wouldn't be so bad if they updated their drivers to OGL45 instead of sitting on OGL41. But hey if Apple wants to be left behind in the dust, then fine let em.

[timofonic]

Oh for fscks' sake. Perhaps you all should READ THE FREAKING PROPOSAL before being so damn sure you know what is being proposed?
Let's quote Apple's ACTUAL words, not your paranoid fantasies:

"We anticipated the situation of next-generation graphics APIs a few years ago and started prototyping in WebKit, to validate that we could expose a very low-level GPU API to the Web, and still get worthwhile performance improvements. Our results were very encouraging, so we are sharing the prototype with the W3C Community Group. We will also start landing code in WebKit soon, so that you can try it out for yourself. We don’t expect this to become the actual API that ends up in the standard, and maybe not even the one that the Community Group decides to start with, but we think there is a lot of value in working code. Other browser engines have made their own similar prototypes. It will be exciting to collaborate with the community and come up with a great new technology for graphics.
"

Apple wants standards on their side, they are a proprietary software and hardware company. They don't support Vulkan on their systems, that makes distrust them.
They said to propose Metal equivalent to SPIR-V, that makes alarms to this

Ideally, Vulkan should be reyalty-free and a WebVulkan to appear. But we live in a crappy standards world.

[aht0]

Apple wants standards on their side, they are a proprietary software and hardware company. They don't support Vulkan on their systems, that makes distrust them.
They said to propose Metal equivalent to SPIR-V, that makes alarms to this

Ideally, Vulkan should be royalty-free and a WebVulkan to appear. But we live in a crappy standards world.

Let me get it straight? You think they should ditch something they thought out, worked out and deployed years before Vulkan came around. I'd be interested in a hearing a reason just why should they do it. Sane reason - not fueled by hateful paranoia towards Apple, ideology and "not invented here" syndrome.

Btw, I've never-ever used or owned any Apple device. Before you accuse me of being an Apple fanboy.

[theriddick]

I think people are not listening very well, people want Apple to 'support' OGL45 and Vulkan, not DROP MetalAPI, why does windows support dx12 and vulkan? WHY?

[aht0]

I think people are not listening very well, people want Apple to 'support' OGL45 and Vulkan, not DROP MetalAPI, why does windows support dx12 and vulkan? WHY?

Yeah, hatred and whining is so loud and overwhelming, very hard to sort out what they want from Apple. All I could see was plain endless bitching over Apple having Metal and not having a Vulkan.

Nobody forces them to use Apple anyway. Once sales are falling Apple becomes much more interested in doing what "people want".

[theriddick]

I don't think Apple cares if sales dropped to zero, they are just earning so much from their iphones to even notice...

[aht0]

Shareholders would, they would lose money. Even if they were insider shareholders.

And to put you think a bit differently about Apple, check what Arthur Levinson and Albert Gore Jr. are doing besides Apple. Trying to solve issues with global climate and trying to combat aging and it's related diseases is sort of beneficial for us all.