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Apple Proposing A New, Lower-Level Graphics API For The Web

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  • #31
    Originally posted by lunarcloud View Post
    If they can't support OpenGL 4.5, WebGL 1/2, or Vulkan - they shouldn't be proposing a standard.
    They need to start following standards more before the other industry players should trust them.
    Minor correction:
    iOS/Safari Mobile does support WebGl 1. It doesn't support WebGL 2, or OpenGL ES 3.1 (only 3.0), nor Vulkan.

    IMO, the best solution would just be to base WebGL 3 on Vulkan and call it a day.

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    • #32
      Everyone here wants Vulkan on the browser. It sounds great to me, makes perfect sense.

      The only problem is that no one seems to be making an effort to make that happen. WebVulkan is not in Kronos or w3c radar and I have not seen any graphics vendor or browser teams even mention the possibility.

      Even if WebMetal is not the ideal we all want, it is better than nothing. At least Apple is making an effort to bring a modern 3d graphics API to the browsers unlike everyone else. Hopefully the discussion will wake up Kronos, Mozilla, Google and Microsoft from their slumber and they can start talking about browsers.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by paulpach View Post
        At least Apple is making an effort to bring a modern 3d graphics API to the browsers unlike everyone else.
        You mean like WebGL which started out at Mozilla and now is developed by the Khronos WebGL Working Group?

        "In early 2009, the non-profit technology consortium Khronos Group started the WebGL Working Group, with initial participation from Apple, Google, Mozilla, Opera, and others.[4][8] Version 1.0 of the WebGL specification was released March 2011.[1] As of March 2012, the chair of the working group is Ken Russell." - Wikipedia

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        • #34
          Originally posted by paulpach View Post
          At least Apple is making an effort to bring a modern 3d graphics API to the browsers unlike everyone else. Hopefully the discussion will wake up Kronos, Mozilla, Google and Microsoft from their slumber and they can start talking about browsers.

          You mean like WebGL which started out at Mozilla and now is developed by the Khronos WebGL Working Group?

          "In early 2009, the non-profit technology consortium Khronos Group started the WebGL Working Group, with initial participation from Apple, Google, Mozilla, Opera, and others.[4][8] Version 1.0 of the WebGL specification was released March 2011.[1] As of March 2012, the chair of the working group is Ken Russell." - Wikipedia

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          • #35
            I'm not sure that exposing low-level interfaces is the sane thing to do for the web, where security is highly important, orders of magnitude more than performance. What's next, DRM?
            That's also the way to go if you want more website to mine cryptocurrencies in the background.

            Oh, wait. This is Apple. They also should concentrate on supporting standards before trying to impose their own.

            Originally posted by kenjitamura View Post

            Mantle, Metal, and Direct3D12 all seemed to sprout out around the same time and no one would have guessed at the time AMD would hand over Mantle to start an open standard so it probably seemed like a no brainer for apple at the time to keep developing metal since one of the solutions was platform locked and the other was only going to be supported by a single gpu vendor in all likelihood.

            Then metal, with all its developer resources committed to it, had already been around for like two years by the time Vulkan came out so they decided to keep it after the significant investment it represented. Why they're refusing to support Vulkan entirely though I couldn't tell you.
            That's not really how I remember it. Is is just me, or are these "alternative facts"? :P

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            • #36
              Originally posted by M@yeulC View Post
              I'm not sure that exposing low-level interfaces is the sane thing to do for the web, where security is highly important, orders of magnitude more than performance. What's next, DRM?
              That's also the way to go if you want more website to mine cryptocurrencies in the background.

              Oh, wait. This is Apple. They also should concentrate on supporting standards before trying to impose their own.



              That's not really how I remember it. Is is just me, or are these "alternative facts"? :P
              Remember: Metal was already around on iOS before it ever came to macOS where it has been available for two years now. While I'd like to see Vulkan on macOS, It is likely that Apple started drafting and implementing Metal with their mobile platform in mind way before that when the rest of the platforms were still far away from any official standard. Due to their mobile focus, Apple just didn't want to wait (nor did they own to since they have one of two platforms in that space), I guess. After all, they are known to prefer doing their own thing. Also, due to the market share and especially market share of people actually spending money on apps in the mobile market, Metal has already gotten some traction in engines and middleware. And since there is still the ongoing rivalry between DX12 and Vulkan on the PC with no clear winner, they might just sit back and wait things out. If Vulkan becomes super popular with developers, they can still jump on it.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by rabcor View Post
                Apple doing something that might possibly become useful for the first time since the 90s, cool.
                You mean like OpenCL?

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by computerquip View Post

                  None. They started Clang which uses LLVM. They do support OpenCL (as much as they do OpenGL AFAIK).
                  They invented Clang, have been the main driver of LLVM/Clang/LLDB, etc, created OpenCL and a lot of of stuff that exist. Without Apple CUPS isn't a fraction of what it is today. They do own it as well.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by 137ben View Post

                    Minor correction:
                    iOS/Safari Mobile does support WebGl 1. It doesn't support WebGL 2, or OpenGL ES 3.1 (only 3.0), nor Vulkan.

                    IMO, the best solution would just be to base WebGL 3 on Vulkan and call it a day.
                    Next Release of Safari/WebKit has full WebGL 1.0/2.0l. No one givs a crap about OpenGL ES 3.1 when Metal came along.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by nemequ View Post

                      I know LLVM was a University of Illinois project, and WebKit is a fork of KHTML, but who is to blame for OpenCL? Wikipedia says Apple started OpenCL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCL#History), though that's hardly irrefutable evidence…
                      Well that would explain why nobody uses OpenCL

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