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Wow! Microsoft DirectX Adopting SPIR-V Moving Forward

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  • MillionToOne
    replied
    Originally posted by qarium View Post

    you are absolutly right. the microsoft stradgy to keep xbox alive just to force game engine developers also to support directx is more or less death Proton/DXVK killed it. their time as console company is over playstation won the console war and with windows alone they can not keep directx alive without switching to SPIR-V...

    and microsoft it looks like as if they do no longer care xbox was always a lose in money and they did always only make money on the games sales but they call sell the same games on playstation or even steam deck.

    microsoft really do many error the minecraft java clind in linux is a pain the game controlers do not work

    i do not unterstand why they do not sell the dirextX12 version of minecraft in valve steam store this would generate more money for them and then people would no longer be forced into this shit java version of the game.
    In no way can you think Bedrock is better than Java edition. You high or something? Bedrock is just the official ripoff. And Bedrock edition doesn't run under Wine/Proton. They'd have to make it native and it'd still use OpenGL. And no amount of convincing to Steam users would make Minecraft sell, because it's the same shitty game, just on the Steam store.

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  • qarium
    replied
    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    They just killed XBox as hardware, will have to give up meaningfull Xbox S support because the fucking garbage hardware can't even produce >720p stable, they moved all their games to this xbox pass, do they care if people would by xbox pass for Linux? No a sell is a sell...
    Maintaining a own tool set just for the only reason to be incompatible is also a cost, meanwhile most games run nice under Linux anyway, They math just don't plays out anymore.
    5 years ago they weren't that big of a games company, if they make windows games incompatible to Linux their own games written with that technology might sell less because of missing steam deck compatibility, also they barely can keep up with Linux development, if you install 5 times windows 11 you get with AMD hardware 15 different FPS numbers apparently based on a random generator or something alike...
    I mean the same reason they just mostly go away from exclusive Xbox games, and port all their games so PS5 there they even pay devs to make it compatible with the competitor, here they just stop paying money to prevent 3rd party to make the games intentionally incompatible to Linux, this makes sense why should they threat Linux so vastly opposite than PS5?
    Could there be same plan to Extinguish Linux, sure but if so, it will fail because Linux has proven again and again that it is immune to this attempts, and for all the people that believe that MS plays 3d chess and always succeeds with their plans, they didn't plan to have Xbox completely die, yet it happened that is a zombie console and Sony has won the Console wars (and so far Nintendo on the Handheld Console front).
    you are absolutly right. the microsoft stradgy to keep xbox alive just to force game engine developers also to support directx is more or less death Proton/DXVK killed it. their time as console company is over playstation won the console war and with windows alone they can not keep directx alive without switching to SPIR-V...

    and microsoft it looks like as if they do no longer care xbox was always a lose in money and they did always only make money on the games sales but they call sell the same games on playstation or even steam deck.

    microsoft really do many error the minecraft java clind in linux is a pain the game controlers do not work

    i do not unterstand why they do not sell the dirextX12 version of minecraft in valve steam store this would generate more money for them and then people would no longer be forced into this shit java version of the game.

    Leave a comment:


  • qarium
    replied
    Originally posted by Artim View Post
    Rumors are not prove for anything. Apple did a lot more than just spreading rumors. But where the fuck did MS actually and fundamentally undermine OpenGL? By that time the only graphics API they undermined with their sheer incompetence was DirectX/Direct3D.
    you really do not know what Microsoft did. it was the time before OpenGL1.0 was released the time when Microsoft was member of khronos. they used their membership to apply delay tactics to OpenGL and not only delay tactics it was also a complicating tactics​ they pushed Khronos to make OpenGL as high level as possible well known this will tank performance and microsoft with directX did go the other route and did make it more low-level to outperform OpenGL in every benchmark. this was the reason why OpenGL was delayed and later outperformed by directX...

    Well, it’s not about which one is better. It’s about the development history of both of them, the 2 giants in the graphics accelerator API which has made this world full of beautiful ga…


    most people lost memory about the khronos membership time of microsoft... microsoft did leave the khronos before openGL 1.0 was even released. after openGL1.0 was released it did take microsoft 14 years to rejoin khronos group to be part of the WebGL section for webbrowsers.

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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by dragon321 View Post
    Windows doesn't support OpenGL and Vulkan. They work on Windows only because x86 Windows supports something called "Installable Client Driver" that allows drivers developers to provide their own implementations of those APIs. I said "x86" because this feature is not present on ARM Windows and Xbox - these platforms don't support OpenGL and Vulkan natively at all.
    This compatibility pack allows more of your favorite OpenCL™, OpenGL®, and Vulkan® apps to run on a Windows 10 or Windows 11 PC that doesn't have these hardware drivers installed by default. If a DirectX 12 driver is installed, supported apps will run with hardware acceleration for better performance. This package supports apps that use OpenCL version 3.0 and earlier, OpenGL version 3.3 and earlier, and Vulkan version 1.2 and earlier. OpenGL apps using versions up to 4.6 may work as well. For more info, visit https://aka.ms/clglcp-faq OpenCL and the OpenCL logo are trademarks of Apple Inc. used with permission by Khronos. Complete license details are available on the Apple website (https://developer.apple.com/softwarelicensing/opencl/). OpenGL® and the oval logo are trademarks or registered trademarks of Hewlett Packard Enterprise in the United States and/or other countries worldwide. Vulkan and the Vulkan logo are registered trademarks of the Khronos Group Inc. Product is based on a published Khronos Specification and is expected to pass the Khronos Conformance Process. Current conformance status can be found at www.khronos.org/conformance.


    Its really a not fun location. On arm Microsoft has finally done what they wanted on Vista. Where Opengl, OpenCl and vulkan are implemented on top of the Direct X layer.

    Yes having to use Microsoft store so you have Opengl, Opencl and Vulkan support is not what you call fun.

    Leave a comment:


  • Artim
    replied
    Originally posted by dragon321 View Post

    I'm not, Apple does that as well now but Microsoft did that years ago. You can easily find articles from around 2006 with rumors that Vista is going to drop OpenGL support. Many games before that year supported OpenGL.​
    Rumors are not prove for anything. Apple did a lot more than just spreading rumors. But where the fuck did MS actually and fundamentally undermine OpenGL? By that time the only graphics API they undermined with their sheer incompetence was DirectX/Direct3D.


    Windows doesn't support OpenGL and Vulkan. They work on Windows only because x86 Windows supports something called "Installable Client Driver" that allows drivers developers to provide their own implementations of those APIs.
    By that logic Windows also doesn't support DirectX, as that also must be supported through the graphics drivers of the GPU vendor. If they wouldn't support it, Windows couldn't use DirectX on these GPUs. It's as simple as that.


    I said "x86" because this feature is not present on ARM Windows and Xbox - these platforms don't support OpenGL and Vulkan natively at all.
    Yet another reason never to run Windows on an ARM device. It's really hilarious how bad Qualcomm's graphics drivers are.

    Leave a comment:


  • dragon321
    replied
    Originally posted by Artim View Post

    I think you confuse Microsoft with Apple. Apple is the one heavily undermining OpenGL
    I'm not, Apple does that as well now but Microsoft did that years ago. You can easily find articles from around 2006 with rumors that Vista is going to drop OpenGL support. Many games before that year supported OpenGL.​

    Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post

    Not sure what you mean by "native API on the platform". Graphics APIs are implemented by the GPU drivers, not by Windows and that includes Direct3D.
    Windows doesn't support OpenGL and Vulkan. They work on Windows only because x86 Windows supports something called "Installable Client Driver" that allows drivers developers to provide their own implementations of those APIs. I said "x86" because this feature is not present on ARM Windows and Xbox - these platforms don't support OpenGL and Vulkan natively at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by qarium View Post
    ​man you say something here when the first steam controller did come out i did buy it
    and guess what i could do nothing with it... gnome did not support it... KDE did not support it...
    and my days of playing games are clearly over this means the controller was complete useless.
    so even after many years gnome and kde still make no use of controllers... really stupid,
    i really hope some day this will change..
    We are seeing change slowly.
    First approach to supporting evdev devices, so applications don't need to listen to them to do simple tasks like direction navigation and such. This has been...


    Originally posted by qarium View Post
    this is really strange... same problem on linux with gnome and kde
    Its not strange. You take a keyboard basic core layout has not really changed since dos. Yes a few extra keys have got in. You mouse having left and right button that came fairly stable in the 1990s. Keyboard and mice have huge durability these days.

    Then you look at game controllers these have not been that standard until fairly recently. Remember xbox 2001 controllers were USB but were not ported to connect to a PC. You get to the PlayStation 4 as in 2013 where you see the console controller coming out the box with standard connect to PC reality we are only 10 years into having controllers that are somewhat standard that are designed to hook to PC out box. From a GUI interface design time frame 10 years is nothing. Think how slowly gnome/kde/windows/macos interface design in fact changes.

    Microsoft is in place to use their standard xbox controller on PC well because it their standard. We have seen this with plasma big-screen where have complex non standard problem with joysticks.

    Next problem is majority of joysticks have been built as consumable. Like we are only now seen controllers with hall effect sensors from start.

    We need the right things in place to make supporting joysticks not a nightmare.

    Originally posted by qarium View Post
    to my knowledge Microsoft is planing exactly this. as i unterstand it microsoft let their own xbox die and hand it over to the oem people...
    Time frame for this we cannot be sure of. Yes I do suspect at some point there will be no xbox instead some form of media computer in it place of course controlled by game controller.

    Leave a comment:


  • qarium
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Bazzite is a cloud native image built upon Fedora Atomic Desktops that brings the best of Linux gaming to all of your devices - including your favorite handheld.

    We are starting to see versions of Linux that are design for gaming controllers.


    man you say something here when the first steam controller did come out i did buy it
    and guess what i could do nothing with it... gnome did not support it... KDE did not support it...
    and my days of playing games are clearly over this means the controller was complete useless.
    so even after many years gnome and kde still make no use of controllers... really stupid,
    i really hope some day this will change..

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Also we are seeing valve now move from just being downstream with steamos to be upstream arch.
    https://lists.archlinux.org/archives...TNP5DH4XZGJMR/


    very good... for many years people could not use upstream linux on the steam deck.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    This is a big change because this will give arch build servers like debian and fedora and ubuntu have.


    this is very good... i do not use arch and i even think arch without version system images like the steam deck use it is dangerous... but good in general... my opinion is arch need tested version immutable system images

    i mean just see the xz case one of the only distroy uploaded it to all is arch... yes it was not active because the virus was only writen for debian/ubuntu and fedora/redhat based systems but man this xz stuff was dangerous to arch people. just imagine something like this hit the steam deck or devices like that..

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    There is a limitation in this room. Asus roc ally and other Windows based handle held are working in spite of Microsoft. They add a lot of software to windows so that controller can be some what usable for OS control.


    this is really strange... same problem on linux with gnome and kde

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

    Let say Microsoft got serous about making the Windows handhelds work this would be basically release the xbox interface to ODM/OEMs. This would then be a direct competitor to xbox because you can bet ODM/OEM would make a compact PC media centre configured for gaming.
    to my knowledge Microsoft is planing exactly this. as i unterstand it microsoft let their own xbox die and hand it over to the oem people...

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    ​​
    Xbox who is Microsoft losing marketshare to is important. It does not appear to be Sony PlayStation. If it valve/steam/Linux (yes this is wider than steam OS) hand could get forced to put the xbox interface as option on desktop Windows then end the xbox console. This would make Sony PlayStation vs off against Windows Media centre PC.
    yes exactly this... i see no other option for microsoft... they do not have the power to save windows and xbox at the same time. they can just merge it on one single product

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    ​​
    Something to be aware about is the items like steamos and bazzite and other atomic Linux these are designed to be robust to user screw ups.
    this is very good.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    ​​
    From my point of view the console space has a new competitor or many new competitors that are not being counted as consoles at this point and that is causing Microsoft and Switch loss of market share. Of course as those competitors get stronger this most likely will come a problem for sony playstation as well.
    yes ... i know people whos computer is incompatible with windows 11 switching to linux
    and they had nintendo switch in the past and now switch to steam deck and so one...
    the sony playstation people are just the most resistant to these movements.

    to me its pretty sure sony will be forced to launch a steam deck competitor and this could only be successfull if the device is playstation 5 compatible... (this is not easy task if all the steam deck like devices more or less have playstation 4 level of performance but coult be possible with massive use of frame generation and upscalling and so one)

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    ​​​
    Yes you are right that Microsoft is not very successful on the asus roc ally and other Windows based handhelds.

    Yes we are starting to see parties who were making windows based handhelds now look to steamos and bazzite and others.

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by qarium View Post
    yes i really hope linux and vulkan and valve steam os get some marketshare i even hope also outside of steam deck hardware. i still hope for the desktop and notebook market...
    Bazzite is a cloud native image built upon Fedora Atomic Desktops that brings the best of Linux gaming to all of your devices - including your favorite handheld.

    We are starting to see versions of Linux that are design for gaming controllers.

    Also we are seeing valve now move from just being downstream with steamos to be upstream arch.


    This is a big change because this will give arch build servers like debian and fedora and ubuntu have.

    Originally posted by qarium View Post
    my opinion is microsoft is not very successfull with windows 11 on asus roc ally hardware... if you read computer tech website comparisons steamOS really win big time even if windows 11 run more games.
    There is a limitation in this room. Asus roc ally and other Windows based handle held are working in spite of Microsoft. They add a lot of software to windows so that controller can be some what usable for OS control.

    Let say Microsoft got serous about making the Windows handhelds work this would be basically release the xbox interface to ODM/OEMs. This would then be a direct competitor to xbox because you can bet ODM/OEM would make a compact PC media centre configured for gaming.

    Xbox who is Microsoft losing marketshare to is important. It does not appear to be Sony PlayStation. If it valve/steam/Linux (yes this is wider than steam OS) hand could get forced to put the xbox interface as option on desktop Windows then end the xbox console. This would make Sony PlayStation vs off against Windows Media centre PC.

    Something to be aware about is the items like steamos and bazzite and other atomic Linux these are designed to be robust to user screw ups.

    From my point of view the console space has a new competitor or many new competitors that are not being counted as consoles at this point and that is causing Microsoft and Switch loss of market share. Of course as those competitors get stronger this most likely will come a problem for sony playstation as well.

    Yes you are right that Microsoft is not very successful on the asus roc ally and other Windows based handhelds.

    Yes we are starting to see parties who were making windows based handhelds now look to steamos and bazzite and others.

    Leave a comment:


  • qarium
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Remember user bought the asus rog ally at full price Microsoft does not have to pay back the R&D on that out of game sales. So users doing this is more profitable to Microsoft.
    No you have missed something.

    vs

    Notice here for a very long time Sony has done 3 tiers. The PS5 Pro would have been in the original PS5 road map from 2020. Where Microsoft has normally only had 1 to 2 tiers on sale at the same time.
    So Microsoft xbox has always released less hardware than Sony PlayStation so this does not explain the market share move.
    Also the move in numbers is between Playstation releases. Yes end of November 2023 is when the bottom tier of the PS5 is released that after the numbers start moving Yes the numbers change when only the 2020 xbox and PlayStation hardware is released..
    I should have been more clear.

    Look at "Total Sales and Market Share for Each Year" table 2022 Xbox and switch not winning against Playsation but things are in the range of normal its 2023 were the numbers start changing and by the other tables is the start of 2023 when it starts showing in a big way. Steamdeck is the end of 2022. The timing of the Steamdeck release lines up for the number change. The release of the steamdeck also did increase interest in items like the asus rog ally but that is mid 2023 to start of 2023 there were other windows handhelds before the asus rog ally. Number change start of 2023 could be the Ayaneo and steamdeck and there are others.
    SPIR-V is more that Microsoft has not been able to get GPU vendors on board. You look at DXIL development and you see a big problem. Microsoft developers add bytecode to DXIL and the only party adding bytecode to DXIL is Microsoft. Yes here is Microsoft with Direct X trying to tell GPU vendors how they should design their GPU.
    SPIR-V is a joint work between the GPU vendors where AMD and Nvidia and Intel and ARM and Qualcomm.... all have added new items to this. AMD even for the Xbox would not make something that natively processed DXIL simply into AMD GPU internal instruction set and this is all the way back to the first xbox with AMD GPU in 2013. Microsoft has been failing for over 20 years to get GPU vendors onboard with their direct X ideas. Remember Spir-v is 2015.
    Microsoft has just been stubborn with direct X at some point Microsoft had to accept the reality that it did not matter how much they attempted to develop DXIL they were not getting any GPU vendors on board with it.
    I would say the xbox sales drop and need for windows gaming for ayaneo and asus ally ... to not be power hog means the incompatible to hardware translation to DXIL had to go away and be replaced with something the GPU vendors in fact agree with. Only real option on the table without attempting to write from scratch was the SPIR-V. Yes Microsoft with DXIL had already tried writing from scratch with absolute failure with GPU vendors.
    So I am not saying that the xbox number reduction is not linked but its not linked in the way you think. Valve/steam getting more market share equals less users buying Microsoft game pass. Microsoft has to counter the steamdeck more than they need to counter the PlayStation or at least it looked that way..
    Yes it kind of a suprise to a lot of people that Microsoft with DXIL was basically putting their head in sand for over 20 years and not listerning to GPU vendors for what the GPu vendors want. Remember the blow up with Windows Vista. Yes GPU vendors and Microsoft have not being in a good place for a very long time. Valve being on good terms with AMD and Intel for their steamdeck and other development work has put pressure on Microsoft to start listening to GPU vendor requirements.
    i can understand very well why GPU vendors rebel against Microsoft/DXIL

    remember it was even at the openGL1.0 days when microsoft first joined khronos and sapotaged the openGL standard to then try to monopolize the gaming market with DirectX... and from around directX3-4 then with DirectX7 had quasi monopole and DirectX8 endet the competition from 3DFX and DirectX9 finished off openGL with a defacto monopole directx10 had little adoption then but DirectX11 wiped the floor with openGL and literally finished of openGL... then AMD mantle appeared and then apple metal and then directX12 and then Vulkan..

    so all i can say microsoft did all to enslave gamers and monopole the graphics APi and i am very happy that the free market and vulkan won in the end.. i think without valve and the steam deck success we would never have seen this day coming that microsoft give in anything.

    yes i really hope linux and vulkan and valve steam os get some marketshare i even hope also outside of steam deck hardware. i still hope for the desktop and notebook market...

    my opinion is microsoft is not very successfull with windows 11 on asus roc ally hardware... if you read computer tech website comparisons steamOS really win big time even if windows 11 run more games.

    Leave a comment:

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