Wow! Microsoft DirectX Adopting SPIR-V Moving Forward

[qarium]

https://www.vgchartz.com/article/460052/ps5-vs-xbox-series-xs-vs-switch-2024-americas-sales-comparison-charts-through-january/

The different market numbers don't suggest collapsing xbox marketshare. But all the numbers do suggest we might have hit peak console as in the max number of consoles you can expect to sell every year and if we have hit peak this is the max number of consoles you can expect to sell every yea this means no more major market share/profit growth from just selling more without taking market from competitors.

there is of course a peak it happened in corona virus time everyone who could did buy a gaming console.

but if you compare marketshare the last 3-4 years then you discover that playstation did grow and xbox did fall in marketshare.

"this means no more major market share/profit growth from just selling more without taking market from competitors."

well this is the point when it hurts microsoft because the playstation markstshare is bigger and has better ecosystem.

[oiaohm]

but if you compare marketshare the last 3-4 years then you discover that playstation did grow and xbox did fall in marketshare.

2024 vs 2023 Playstation sold more units in 2023 than 2024. So play-station now has a fall as well. So did the xbox market share just fall first.

Look at these numbers again.

https://www.vgchartz.com/article/460052/ps5-vs-xbox-series-xs-vs-switch-2024-americas-sales-comparison-charts-through-january/

There is a problem here xbox and switch disappearing customers are not turning as PlayStation customers.

https://www.midiaresearch.com/blog/steam-is-the-unlikely-winner-of-the-modern-console-wars-for-now

The question here is the 100000+ missing sales of console in fact gone to steam OS/stream deck growth.

Yes noted here games on xbox are more commonly released on steam at the same time so steam/steam deck is most likely to hit this market hard. Playstation sales number stall out at the point that games PlayStation release on steam at the same time.

I do agree playsation ecosystem has been more resistant to steam/valve moves than the xbox ecosystem but the xbox ecosystem was built on the idea that it will make it simpler for PC games to be released on console so saving on development costs.

qarium the question we are not sure of is where is the old xbox users going. We know they don't appear to be reappearing as PlayStation users. Now if those parties that used to buy xbox are now moving to steam os/linux gaming OS based items is this also going to start eating the playstation market as well. Yes the 2023/2024 number suggest PlayStation maybe going to have declining numbers soon as well.

This is my problem its a little soon to say Playstation is winning over xbox because we don't know who in fact xbox has lost their market share to with 100 percent certainty. And if that party is valve/steam that xbox is losing market share to is this going later on hit play-station market share hard.

Basically we need a few more years of data to see what in the heck is going on. Is this playstation winning or just the console market in decline with the xbox being hardest hit first.

[qarium]

2024 vs 2023 Playstation sold more units in 2023 than 2024. So play-station now has a fall as well. So did the xbox market share just fall first.
Look at these numbers again.

https://www.vgchartz.com/article/460052/ps5-vs-xbox-series-xs-vs-switch-2024-americas-sales-comparison-charts-through-january/

There is a problem here xbox and switch disappearing customers are not turning as PlayStation customers.

https://www.midiaresearch.com/blog/steam-is-the-unlikely-winner-of-the-modern-console-wars-for-now

The question here is the 100000+ missing sales of console in fact gone to steam OS/stream deck growth.
Yes noted here games on xbox are more commonly released on steam at the same time so steam/steam deck is most likely to hit this market hard. Playstation sales number stall out at the point that games PlayStation release on steam at the same time.
I do agree playsation ecosystem has been more resistant to steam/valve moves than the xbox ecosystem but the xbox ecosystem was built on the idea that it will make it simpler for PC games to be released on console so saving on development costs.
qarium the question we are not sure of is where is the old xbox users going. We know they don't appear to be reappearing as PlayStation users. Now if those parties that used to buy xbox are now moving to steam os/linux gaming OS based items is this also going to start eating the playstation market as well. Yes the 2023/2024 number suggest PlayStation maybe going to have declining numbers soon as well.
This is my problem its a little soon to say Playstation is winning over xbox because we don't know who in fact xbox has lost their market share to with 100 percent certainty. And if that party is valve/steam that xbox is losing market share to is this going later on hit play-station market share hard.
Basically we need a few more years of data to see what in the heck is going on. Is this playstation winning or just the console market in decline with the xbox being hardest hit first.

very good analysis from you and thank you for the steam link very interesting.

i have a suggestion where the xbox user vanish where they go it maybe is not even steamdeck or steamOS

maybe some of them just buy this windows 11 driven steam deck alternative like asus rog ally
and using xbox game pass there... and this device is not counted as a xbox device.
this also indirectly helps valve/steam because you can use the steam store on this device.

now if you can use xbox game pass on a asus rog ally then a playstation customer more likely would not do same.

my opinion is the game console war is over and xbox is more or less death and microsoft move its users to windows pc and devices like asus rog ally means more open systems.

it looks to me like only classic completely closed game console thats stay a little longer is the playstation.

as you can easily see playstation gets new hardware like the playstation 5 pro and xbox yet does not get new hardware.

now see microsoft how they move directx to SPIR-V means the same basis as VULKAN... this could be connected to the xbox console marketshare collapse.

[oiaohm]

i have a suggestion where the xbox user vanish where they go it maybe is not even steamdeck or steamOS

maybe some of them just buy this windows 11 driven steam deck alternative like asus rog ally
and using xbox game pass there... and this device is not counted as a xbox device.
this also indirectly helps valve/steam because you can use the steam store on this device.

now if you can use xbox game pass on a asus rog ally then a playstation customer more likely would not do same.

Remember user bought the asus rog ally at full price Microsoft does not have to pay back the R&D on that out of game sales. So users doing this is more profitable to Microsoft.

as you can easily see playstation gets new hardware like the playstation 5 pro and xbox yet does not get new hardware.

No you have missed something.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox#Comparison

vs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation#Comparison

Notice here for a very long time Sony has done 3 tiers. The PS5 Pro would have been in the original PS5 road map from 2020. Where Microsoft has normally only had 1 to 2 tiers on sale at the same time.

So Microsoft xbox has always released less hardware than Sony PlayStation so this does not explain the market share move.

Also the move in numbers is between Playstation releases. Yes end of November 2023 is when the bottom tier of the PS5 is released that after the numbers start moving Yes the numbers change when only the 2020 xbox and PlayStation hardware is released..

now see microsoft how they move directx to SPIR-V means the same basis as VULKAN... this could be connected to the xbox console marketshare collapse.

I should have been more clear.

https://www.vgchartz.com/article/460052/ps5-vs-xbox-series-xs-vs-switch-2024-americas-sales-comparison-charts-through-january/

Look at "Total Sales and Market Share for Each Year" table 2022 Xbox and switch not winning against Playsation but things are in the range of normal its 2023 were the numbers start changing and by the other tables is the start of 2023 when it starts showing in a big way. Steamdeck is the end of 2022. The timing of the Steamdeck release lines up for the number change. The release of the steamdeck also did increase interest in items like the asus rog ally but that is mid 2023 to start of 2023 there were other windows handhelds before the asus rog ally. Number change start of 2023 could be the Ayaneo and steamdeck and there are others.

SPIR-V is more that Microsoft has not been able to get GPU vendors on board. You look at DXIL development and you see a big problem. Microsoft developers add bytecode to DXIL and the only party adding bytecode to DXIL is Microsoft. Yes here is Microsoft with Direct X trying to tell GPU vendors how they should design their GPU.

SPIR-V is a joint work between the GPU vendors where AMD and Nvidia and Intel and ARM and Qualcomm.... all have added new items to this. AMD even for the Xbox would not make something that natively processed DXIL simply into AMD GPU internal instruction set and this is all the way back to the first xbox with AMD GPU in 2013. Microsoft has been failing for over 20 years to get GPU vendors onboard with their direct X ideas. Remember Spir-v is 2015.

Microsoft has just been stubborn with direct X at some point Microsoft had to accept the reality that it did not matter how much they attempted to develop DXIL they were not getting any GPU vendors on board with it.

I would say the xbox sales drop and need for windows gaming for ayaneo and asus ally ... to not be power hog means the incompatible to hardware translation to DXIL had to go away and be replaced with something the GPU vendors in fact agree with. Only real option on the table without attempting to write from scratch was the SPIR-V. Yes Microsoft with DXIL had already tried writing from scratch with absolute failure with GPU vendors.

So I am not saying that the xbox number reduction is not linked but its not linked in the way you think. Valve/steam getting more market share equals less users buying Microsoft game pass. Microsoft has to counter the steamdeck more than they need to counter the PlayStation or at least it looked that way..

Yes it kind of a suprise to a lot of people that Microsoft with DXIL was basically putting their head in sand for over 20 years and not listerning to GPU vendors for what the GPu vendors want. Remember the blow up with Windows Vista. Yes GPU vendors and Microsoft have not being in a good place for a very long time. Valve being on good terms with AMD and Intel for their steamdeck and other development work has put pressure on Microsoft to start listening to GPU vendor requirements.

[qarium]

Remember user bought the asus rog ally at full price Microsoft does not have to pay back the R&D on that out of game sales. So users doing this is more profitable to Microsoft.
No you have missed something.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox#Comparison

vs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation#Comparison

Notice here for a very long time Sony has done 3 tiers. The PS5 Pro would have been in the original PS5 road map from 2020. Where Microsoft has normally only had 1 to 2 tiers on sale at the same time.
So Microsoft xbox has always released less hardware than Sony PlayStation so this does not explain the market share move.
Also the move in numbers is between Playstation releases. Yes end of November 2023 is when the bottom tier of the PS5 is released that after the numbers start moving Yes the numbers change when only the 2020 xbox and PlayStation hardware is released..
I should have been more clear.

https://www.vgchartz.com/article/460052/ps5-vs-xbox-series-xs-vs-switch-2024-americas-sales-comparison-charts-through-january/

Look at "Total Sales and Market Share for Each Year" table 2022 Xbox and switch not winning against Playsation but things are in the range of normal its 2023 were the numbers start changing and by the other tables is the start of 2023 when it starts showing in a big way. Steamdeck is the end of 2022. The timing of the Steamdeck release lines up for the number change. The release of the steamdeck also did increase interest in items like the asus rog ally but that is mid 2023 to start of 2023 there were other windows handhelds before the asus rog ally. Number change start of 2023 could be the Ayaneo and steamdeck and there are others.
SPIR-V is more that Microsoft has not been able to get GPU vendors on board. You look at DXIL development and you see a big problem. Microsoft developers add bytecode to DXIL and the only party adding bytecode to DXIL is Microsoft. Yes here is Microsoft with Direct X trying to tell GPU vendors how they should design their GPU.
SPIR-V is a joint work between the GPU vendors where AMD and Nvidia and Intel and ARM and Qualcomm.... all have added new items to this. AMD even for the Xbox would not make something that natively processed DXIL simply into AMD GPU internal instruction set and this is all the way back to the first xbox with AMD GPU in 2013. Microsoft has been failing for over 20 years to get GPU vendors onboard with their direct X ideas. Remember Spir-v is 2015.
Microsoft has just been stubborn with direct X at some point Microsoft had to accept the reality that it did not matter how much they attempted to develop DXIL they were not getting any GPU vendors on board with it.
I would say the xbox sales drop and need for windows gaming for ayaneo and asus ally ... to not be power hog means the incompatible to hardware translation to DXIL had to go away and be replaced with something the GPU vendors in fact agree with. Only real option on the table without attempting to write from scratch was the SPIR-V. Yes Microsoft with DXIL had already tried writing from scratch with absolute failure with GPU vendors.
So I am not saying that the xbox number reduction is not linked but its not linked in the way you think. Valve/steam getting more market share equals less users buying Microsoft game pass. Microsoft has to counter the steamdeck more than they need to counter the PlayStation or at least it looked that way..
Yes it kind of a suprise to a lot of people that Microsoft with DXIL was basically putting their head in sand for over 20 years and not listerning to GPU vendors for what the GPu vendors want. Remember the blow up with Windows Vista. Yes GPU vendors and Microsoft have not being in a good place for a very long time. Valve being on good terms with AMD and Intel for their steamdeck and other development work has put pressure on Microsoft to start listening to GPU vendor requirements.

i can understand very well why GPU vendors rebel against Microsoft/DXIL

remember it was even at the openGL1.0 days when microsoft first joined khronos and sapotaged the openGL standard to then try to monopolize the gaming market with DirectX... and from around directX3-4 then with DirectX7 had quasi monopole and DirectX8 endet the competition from 3DFX and DirectX9 finished off openGL with a defacto monopole directx10 had little adoption then but DirectX11 wiped the floor with openGL and literally finished of openGL... then AMD mantle appeared and then apple metal and then directX12 and then Vulkan..

so all i can say microsoft did all to enslave gamers and monopole the graphics APi and i am very happy that the free market and vulkan won in the end.. i think without valve and the steam deck success we would never have seen this day coming that microsoft give in anything.

yes i really hope linux and vulkan and valve steam os get some marketshare i even hope also outside of steam deck hardware. i still hope for the desktop and notebook market...

my opinion is microsoft is not very successfull with windows 11 on asus roc ally hardware... if you read computer tech website comparisons steamOS really win big time even if windows 11 run more games.

[oiaohm]

yes i really hope linux and vulkan and valve steam os get some marketshare i even hope also outside of steam deck hardware. i still hope for the desktop and notebook market...

https://bazzite.gg/

We are starting to see versions of Linux that are design for gaming controllers.

Also we are seeing valve now move from just being downstream with steamos to be upstream arch.

https://lists.archlinux.org/archives/list/[email protected]/thread/RIZSKIBDSLY4S5J2E2STNP5DH4XZGJMR/

This is a big change because this will give arch build servers like debian and fedora and ubuntu have.

my opinion is microsoft is not very successfull with windows 11 on asus roc ally hardware... if you read computer tech website comparisons steamOS really win big time even if windows 11 run more games.

There is a limitation in this room. Asus roc ally and other Windows based handle held are working in spite of Microsoft. They add a lot of software to windows so that controller can be some what usable for OS control.

Let say Microsoft got serous about making the Windows handhelds work this would be basically release the xbox interface to ODM/OEMs. This would then be a direct competitor to xbox because you can bet ODM/OEM would make a compact PC media centre configured for gaming.

Xbox who is Microsoft losing marketshare to is important. It does not appear to be Sony PlayStation. If it valve/steam/Linux (yes this is wider than steam OS) hand could get forced to put the xbox interface as option on desktop Windows then end the xbox console. This would make Sony PlayStation vs off against Windows Media centre PC.

Something to be aware about is the items like steamos and bazzite and other atomic Linux these are designed to be robust to user screw ups.

From my point of view the console space has a new competitor or many new competitors that are not being counted as consoles at this point and that is causing Microsoft and Switch loss of market share. Of course as those competitors get stronger this most likely will come a problem for sony playstation as well.

Yes you are right that Microsoft is not very successful on the asus roc ally and other Windows based handhelds.

https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/13/24219469/valve-steamos-asus-rog-ally-steady-progress-dual-boot

Yes we are starting to see parties who were making windows based handhelds now look to steamos and bazzite and others.

[qarium]

https://bazzite.gg/

We are starting to see versions of Linux that are design for gaming controllers.

man you say something here when the first steam controller did come out i did buy it
and guess what i could do nothing with it... gnome did not support it... KDE did not support it...
and my days of playing games are clearly over this means the controller was complete useless.
so even after many years gnome and kde still make no use of controllers... really stupid,
i really hope some day this will change..

Also we are seeing valve now move from just being downstream with steamos to be upstream arch.
https://lists.archlinux.org/archives...TNP5DH4XZGJMR/

very good... for many years people could not use upstream linux on the steam deck.

This is a big change because this will give arch build servers like debian and fedora and ubuntu have.

this is very good... i do not use arch and i even think arch without version system images like the steam deck use it is dangerous... but good in general... my opinion is arch need tested version immutable system images

i mean just see the xz case one of the only distroy uploaded it to all is arch... yes it was not active because the virus was only writen for debian/ubuntu and fedora/redhat based systems but man this xz stuff was dangerous to arch people. just imagine something like this hit the steam deck or devices like that..

There is a limitation in this room. Asus roc ally and other Windows based handle held are working in spite of Microsoft. They add a lot of software to windows so that controller can be some what usable for OS control.

this is really strange... same problem on linux with gnome and kde

Let say Microsoft got serous about making the Windows handhelds work this would be basically release the xbox interface to ODM/OEMs. This would then be a direct competitor to xbox because you can bet ODM/OEM would make a compact PC media centre configured for gaming.

to my knowledge Microsoft is planing exactly this. as i unterstand it microsoft let their own xbox die and hand it over to the oem people...

Xbox who is Microsoft losing marketshare to is important. It does not appear to be Sony PlayStation. If it valve/steam/Linux (yes this is wider than steam OS) hand could get forced to put the xbox interface as option on desktop Windows then end the xbox console. This would make Sony PlayStation vs off against Windows Media centre PC.

yes exactly this... i see no other option for microsoft... they do not have the power to save windows and xbox at the same time. they can just merge it on one single product

Something to be aware about is the items like steamos and bazzite and other atomic Linux these are designed to be robust to user screw ups.

this is very good.

From my point of view the console space has a new competitor or many new competitors that are not being counted as consoles at this point and that is causing Microsoft and Switch loss of market share. Of course as those competitors get stronger this most likely will come a problem for sony playstation as well.

yes ... i know people whos computer is incompatible with windows 11 switching to linux
and they had nintendo switch in the past and now switch to steam deck and so one...
the sony playstation people are just the most resistant to these movements.

to me its pretty sure sony will be forced to launch a steam deck competitor and this could only be successfull if the device is playstation 5 compatible... (this is not easy task if all the steam deck like devices more or less have playstation 4 level of performance but coult be possible with massive use of frame generation and upscalling and so one)

Yes you are right that Microsoft is not very successful on the asus roc ally and other Windows based handhelds.

https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/13/24219469/valve-steamos-asus-rog-ally-steady-progress-dual-boot

Yes we are starting to see parties who were making windows based handhelds now look to steamos and bazzite and others.

[oiaohm]

man you say something here when the first steam controller did come out i did buy it
and guess what i could do nothing with it... gnome did not support it... KDE did not support it...
and my days of playing games are clearly over this means the controller was complete useless.
so even after many years gnome and kde still make no use of controllers... really stupid,
i really hope some day this will change..

We are seeing change slowly.

https://invent.kde.org/plasma-bigscreen/plasma-remotecontrollers/-/merge_requests/2

this is really strange... same problem on linux with gnome and kde

Its not strange. You take a keyboard basic core layout has not really changed since dos. Yes a few extra keys have got in. You mouse having left and right button that came fairly stable in the 1990s. Keyboard and mice have huge durability these days.

Then you look at game controllers these have not been that standard until fairly recently. Remember xbox 2001 controllers were USB but were not ported to connect to a PC. You get to the PlayStation 4 as in 2013 where you see the console controller coming out the box with standard connect to PC reality we are only 10 years into having controllers that are somewhat standard that are designed to hook to PC out box. From a GUI interface design time frame 10 years is nothing. Think how slowly gnome/kde/windows/macos interface design in fact changes.

Microsoft is in place to use their standard xbox controller on PC well because it their standard. We have seen this with plasma big-screen where have complex non standard problem with joysticks.

Next problem is majority of joysticks have been built as consumable. Like we are only now seen controllers with hall effect sensors from start.

We need the right things in place to make supporting joysticks not a nightmare.

to my knowledge Microsoft is planing exactly this. as i unterstand it microsoft let their own xbox die and hand it over to the oem people...

Time frame for this we cannot be sure of. Yes I do suspect at some point there will be no xbox instead some form of media computer in it place of course controlled by game controller.

[dragon321]

I think you confuse Microsoft with Apple. Apple is the one heavily undermining OpenGL

I'm not, Apple does that as well now but Microsoft did that years ago. You can easily find articles from around 2006 with rumors that Vista is going to drop OpenGL support. Many games before that year supported OpenGL.

Not sure what you mean by "native API on the platform". Graphics APIs are implemented by the GPU drivers, not by Windows and that includes Direct3D.

Windows doesn't support OpenGL and Vulkan. They work on Windows only because x86 Windows supports something called "Installable Client Driver" that allows drivers developers to provide their own implementations of those APIs. I said "x86" because this feature is not present on ARM Windows and Xbox - these platforms don't support OpenGL and Vulkan natively at all.

[Artim]

I'm not, Apple does that as well now but Microsoft did that years ago. You can easily find articles from around 2006 with rumors that Vista is going to drop OpenGL support. Many games before that year supported OpenGL.

Rumors are not prove for anything. Apple did a lot more than just spreading rumors. But where the fuck did MS actually and fundamentally undermine OpenGL? By that time the only graphics API they undermined with their sheer incompetence was DirectX/Direct3D.

Windows doesn't support OpenGL and Vulkan. They work on Windows only because x86 Windows supports something called "Installable Client Driver" that allows drivers developers to provide their own implementations of those APIs.

By that logic Windows also doesn't support DirectX, as that also must be supported through the graphics drivers of the GPU vendor. If they wouldn't support it, Windows couldn't use DirectX on these GPUs. It's as simple as that.

I said "x86" because this feature is not present on ARM Windows and Xbox - these platforms don't support OpenGL and Vulkan natively at all.

Yet another reason never to run Windows on an ARM device. It's really hilarious how bad Qualcomm's graphics drivers are.