With Vulkan 1.1 It's Technically Possible To Write A Pure Wayland Compositor

[starshipeleven]

That it has Apple chanpioning it is why Swift has a future that looks brighter than Rust.

??? Swift is a different kind of fish, it is a Java or C#/.net equivalent that needs a program to read it (a runtime), it does not run natively.

Rust generates native executable binaries, like C/C++ and friends.

You can write an entire OS in rust, but you can write only userspace applications in Swift.

The very attempt to even compare the two only proves you have no fucking idea of what you're talking about.

Contrary to some opinions here im not die hard Apple,

Yes you are, you keep posting total bullshit arguments to show how better is Apple stuff when it's not even a fair comparison (comparing apples to bananas).

speaking of being around in ten years i suspect Linux will have an even harder time on the desktop in ten years. The reason is AI tech which is right at the bleeding edge of implementation. I havent notice serious discussions about Ai in the kernel nor in user space. This will need to happen though if Linux wants to remain a player on the desktop or in andvanced applications.

What in the actual fuck is this.
WHAT. THE. FUCK.

You have any understanding of what "AI tech" is and what "kernel" is and what "userspace" is? Are you just pulling buzzwords to sound smart?

An AI is either a userspace program that uses a GPU to do its job (and this works fine on Linux already, most AI and machine learning happens on Linux systems), or a dedicated firmware running in a dedicated and totally alien hardware that creates a neural network in hardware (like neurosynaptic processors developed by IBM) where Linux would have 0 interest in running in, same as it has 0 interest in running inside a GPU.

[starshipeleven]

Just saying, I'm pretty sure what he is asking for is something like the computers from Star Trek. He wants his computer to make him a hot Earl Grey tea.

Yeah, the point where he is wrong is that IPAs (intelligent personal assistant) need special facilities and support in the kernel.

They are just GPU-assisted userspace programs like many others, and what they do has no need to have specific facilities in the kernel.

The kernel just exposes the hardware features to them, as it does to any other userspace program needing them, it does not does not need to care about what the userspace is actually doing with that (as long as it isn't trying to break security boundaries or such).

[starshipeleven]

I'm using a driver written in Python for my Waveshare 7" touchscreen. And in 10 years time Poettering will have completely ruined Linux so Apple will be the only real alternative to government-mandated Windows. Sieg heil the homeland!

[nanonyme]

I really don't see any place for AI in the kernel, whether on Linux or any other OS. At the hardware/microcode/hypervisor level, possibly yes in some form as a way to achieve greater reliability and performance, but a kernel's role is really complex but ultimately dumb. That's very unlikely to change and Apple or Microsoft aren't developing any AI-featured kernels either. Oh and Bash is not part of the kernel at all.

In userland applications, there is and will be a huge deployment of various things that fall under the "AI" term, but that will affect Linux, Apple or Windows equally, There are various FOSS "AI" libraries and frameworks available for Linux app developers right now.

That's not entirely true. Kernel manages memory. This is fine art and software doing this effectively results in being some level of an AI. Same for schedulers

[duby229]

Not to shit on Perl (it's not bad), but any decent language has 2-3 orders of magnitude better string manipulation functions than shell+CLI tools.

Mostly because shell is NOT a programming language and should NOT be used as such.

Of course, but it -IS- a powerful scripting language that helps automate command line processes. Just because it has a specific purpose doesn't make it any less powerful for what it does. Which is my point about perl as well. It too has a specific purpose and parsing text is among it. If you need to parse text then perl is incredibly powerful.

[ssokolow]

Swift is the new Objective C. It has seen rapid adoption within the Apple ecosystem and essentially zero adoption anywhere else (not that Apple cult zealots usually even know that anything else exists, mind you). It baffles me a little bit, because it certainly is a good language for what it does (nicer than Go, IMHO), but in the open source community, it is as ignored as Objective C itself was.

Your point is ridiculous anyway because Swift, being a high-level, gargbage-collected language that requires a runtime environment, is not suitable for drivers or low level components of a graphics stack. Rust has been designed for that, is already used for that job and is pretty damn good at it. It also offers security guarantees that Swift can't. I would without doubt use Swift to write an iOS app, but for core OS components, Rust is the go-to language.

My perception is that Swift is seeing poor Linux uptake for one of the reasons ESR blamed for Java's poor uptake on Linux outside the enterprise... support for the APIs developers want to use is inferior to other options.

(eg. The comparison he gave was that Python has an excellent binding for the basic POSIX APIs in the standard library while Java took forever to provide a proper way to do some trivial thing that's important for writing a well-behaved component in a shell script... my memory keeps saying "set a custom exit code" but I just can't believe a language would be that incapable.)

[carewolf]

??? Swift is a different kind of fish, it is a Java or C#/.net equivalent that needs a program to read it (a runtime), it does not run natively.

Rust generates native executable binaries, like C/C++ and friends.

You can write an entire OS in rust, but you can write only userspace applications in Swift.

The very attempt to even compare the two only proves you have no fucking idea of what you're talking about.

Yes you are, you keep posting total bullshit arguments to show how better is Apple stuff when it's not even a fair comparison (comparing apples to bananas).


What in the actual fuck is this.
WHAT. THE. FUCK.

You have any understanding of what "AI tech" is and what "kernel" is and what "userspace" is? Are you just pulling buzzwords to sound smart?

An AI is either a userspace program that uses a GPU to do its job (and this works fine on Linux already, most AI and machine learning happens on Linux systems), or a dedicated firmware running in a dedicated and totally alien hardware that creates a neural network in hardware (like neurosynaptic processors developed by IBM) where Linux would have 0 interest in running in, same as it has 0 interest in running inside a GPU.

Actually most AI is just spyware that uses a simple trigger filter, and once the filter is hit starts sending you audio or video feed back the mothership for work. Linux has no interest in current generation AI because it is spyware and doesnt work without the spying part.

[Luke_Wolf]

My perception is that Swift is seeing poor Linux uptake for one of the reasons ESR blamed for Java's poor uptake on Linux outside the enterprise... support for the APIs developers want to use is inferior to other options.

(eg. The comparison he gave was that Python has an excellent binding for the basic POSIX APIs in the standard library while Java took forever to provide a proper way to do some trivial thing that's important for writing a well-behaved component in a shell script... my memory keeps saying "set a custom exit code" but I just can't believe a language would be that incapable.)

Unless things have changed Apple may have opened the language, but not the core library just like they did with Objective-C, and even if they have, nobody but Apple fanboys such as Wizard69 care about it any more. It failed to achieve momentum outside of Apple users in it's honeymoon stage, In fact the only one of the new languages that achieved that at all was Rust which seems to have a constant hype train going, and the overzealous fanboys continue to knock on the windows of people writing C or C++ projects telling them they should rewrite it in Rust. Which fair is fair, there's a lot of reason to do so, but that's the difference in userbase here.

One of these languages has a huge ongoing interest, the other is 2014's fashion trend that only Apple developers still hold onto.

[ssokolow]

Actually most AI is just spyware that uses a simple trigger filter, and once the filter is hit starts sending you audio or video feed back the mothership for work.

A.I.… Alien Intelligence? :P

[carewolf]

Unless things have changed Apple may have opened the language, but not the core library just like they did with Objective-C, and even if they have, nobody but Apple fanboys such as Wizard69 care about it any more. It failed to achieve momentum outside of Apple users in it's honeymoon stage, In fact the only one of the new languages that achieved that at all was Rust which seems to have a constant hype train going, and the overzealous fanboys continue to knock on the windows of people writing C or C++ projects telling them they should rewrite it in Rust. Which fair is fair, there's a lot of reason to do so, but that's the difference in userbase here.

Rust is used outside of its fanbase? I didnt even know anyone but Firefox was using it.