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Apple Announces A New 3D API, OpenGL Competitor: Metal

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  • Originally posted by johnc View Post
    He's not a fanboy because he said I'm wrong, he's a fanboy because he posted 20 straight messages extolling the amazing impeccable flawlessness of Apple. And this isn't the first time he's done that.
    Yeah... Even Driftmeyer doesn't do that, but wizard69 does it all the time, it's like he reads through entire threads and decides to defend Apple against the forum dwellers post by post...

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    • Originally posted by Luke_Wolf View Post
      Yeah... Even Driftmeyer doesn't do that, but wizard69 does it all the time, it's like he reads through entire threads and decides to defend Apple against the forum dwellers post by post...
      I just don't see him hyping up Apple. I see him defending them against stupid allegations like most of the ones made in this thread, and if that makes him a fanboy then ROFL. If you want to group together and get things done then please, please be realistic and pragmatic rather than

      AHJDIOSDJIOSFJIOFS OMG APPLE IS PLANNING ON DOING THEIR OWN 3D LANGUAGE FOR THEIR OWN HARDWARE ON THEIR OWN OPERATING SYSTEM WHICH IS HAS MINORITY MARKET SHARE THIS WILL SOMEHOW LEAD TO OPENGL BEING HURT SOMEHOW EVEN THOUGH IM NOT A PROGRAMMER I ONLY USE LINUX ON THE DESKTOP THEREFORE I SOMEHOW KNOW SOMETHING I OBVIOUSLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT

      as if that helps ANYONE, and as if that will get people to take you guys seriously.

      I'm going to re-iterate, Swift is good. Really good. It's not good because Apple made it, it's good because Apple paid some smart engineers a lot of money to make it, much like Go *appears* to be good (although admitted I haven't had a reason to use it seriously, I've made a few small programs with it and it was easy). If you people want to get something good done out of this focus on Swift being open sourced if it's not.
      Last edited by jimbohale; 06-06-2014, 03:50 AM.

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      • Originally posted by jimbohale View Post
        I just don't see him hyping up Apple. I see him defending them against stupid allegations like most of the ones made in this thread, and if that makes him a fanboy then ROFL. If you want to group together and get things done then please, please be realistic and pragmatic rather than
        Yes, that is typical fanboy or clearly-paid-shill behavior. If you haven't seen such before, perhaps you have rose-tinted glasses on.

        Originally posted by wizard69
        All this crap about lock in is just silly to me. A 3D API is the least likely thing to cause significant porting issues.
        How many apps have you ported from DX to GL?

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        • Originally posted by johnc View Post
          He's not a fanboy because he said I'm wrong, he's a fanboy because he posted 20 straight messages extolling the amazing impeccable flawlessness of Apple. And this isn't the first time he's done that.
          That doesn't necessarily make him a fan boy. He could just be an employee or subcontractor of an image management consultancy used by Apple. When you watch tech forums for a long enough period, there are signs of a unified view point being pushed. Sometimes it is obvious (eg. when they mess up and accidentally post a reply from the wrong account. Yes, I have see it happen..), but usually it is more subtle, the clues are being unabashedly pro-Apple, and repeating the same "hit list" of points, multiple times, and usually from multiple accounts - often accounts that have been created some time ago, but lie dormant until an Apple-relevant topic appears. Being unabashedly pro-Apple all of the time is going to be obvious, so quite often they have a point that gives fake praise to a competitor/product that isn't actually competing with Apple. The points are usually along the lines of:
          • Competitor X is ok for Y
          • Apple competitor sucks for reason X and reason Y
          • Apple competitor product sucks for reason X and Y
          • Apple competitor product is failing for reason X
          • Apple product is better for reason X
          • Apple is better for reason X
          • Apple is successful
          • You should use Apple
          • Here is how you can use Apple


          Real example:
          • Linux is good for servers.
          • Google spies on you and all your personal data so they can sell advertising
          • Android is fragmented
          • Apple don't spy on your personal data *
          • Apple makes more money, has >90% market share **
          • You really should use Apple
          • Apple have some great deals on right now, check out store.apple.com

          [*] notice how they conveniently forget about iAds, and that the message they send here is the exact opposite of the message they send to advertisers ("Find your audience using targeting tools built upon a foundation of registration and media consumption that's exclusve to iAd")

          [**] they don't quote market share any more, except for iPad

          Of course, it is difficult to distinguish true fans from professional image management consultants (that is the whole point). I would dismiss this as paranoia, if I hadn't seen the evidence of accidental replies from the wrong account a few times.

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          • Originally posted by jimbohale View Post
            I just don't see him hyping up Apple. I see him defending them against stupid allegations like most of the ones made in this thread, and if that makes him a fanboy then ROFL. If you want to group together and get things done then please, please be realistic and pragmatic rather than

            AHJDIOSDJIOSFJIOFS OMG APPLE IS PLANNING ON DOING THEIR OWN 3D LANGUAGE FOR THEIR OWN HARDWARE ON THEIR OWN OPERATING SYSTEM WHICH IS HAS MINORITY MARKET SHARE THIS WILL SOMEHOW LEAD TO OPENGL BEING HURT SOMEHOW EVEN THOUGH IM NOT A PROGRAMMER I ONLY USE LINUX ON THE DESKTOP THEREFORE I SOMEHOW KNOW SOMETHING I OBVIOUSLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT
            Nobody is saying zomg anything. It is just an obvious fact that proprietary APIs (and proprietary anything) are leveraged for vendor lock-in. Direct3D is the most successful example of vendor lock-in in the gaming industry. Mantle, despite the initial claims of it being "open", was clearly intended for vendor lock-in and product differentiation, two things that are pivotal as a business and marketing strategy in an industry that is cut-throat. NVIDIA still pushing CUDA -- even after OpenCL became a standard -- is an example of vendor lock-in.

            And this Metal thing is absolutely no different. What Apple can accomplish "technically" through this API could have just as easily been done with OpenGL. There is no technical reason for this API. The reasons are marketing (which, judging by much of the initial response we have to admit worked well in this case), product differentiation, and trying to make it as difficult as possible to go from iOS to Android.

            When the CEO of a company like NVIDIA says that "Android is the gaming platform of the future", we can believe that the big wigs at Apple took notice. I suspect that this Metal idea did not first materialize in the engineering department.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by jimbohale View Post
              It's not like OpenGL ES is a batch of code, it's a specification.
              Originally posted by jimbohale View Post
              Right now, OpenGL ES from iOS to Android is not very similar... it's *already* very difficult to port from one to the other, it's not as easy as you make it sound.
              Originally posted by wizard69 View Post
              All this crap about lock in is just silly to me. A 3D API is the least likely thing to cause significant porting issues.
              So OpenGL ES is just a specification, but it's very hard to port, but a completely different 3D API is unlikely to cause porting issues. Got it.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by chrisb View Post
                So OpenGL ES is just a specification, but it's very hard to port, but a completely different 3D API is unlikely to cause porting issues. Got it.
                The OpenGL ES implementation on Android and iOS are different. They wind up providing the same functions but in different programming languages.

                Either way, people, you are missing the point. FOCUS ON SWIFT. SWIFT MATTERS, METAL DOESN'T. Metal will die out because much unlike OpenGL 1, OpenGL 4.x is actually good compared to it's competition. Chances are like two projects will use Metal and then in two major releases Apple will drop support for it since OpenGL ES by then will likely do what they need it to.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by jimbohale View Post
                  The OpenGL ES implementation on Android and iOS are different. They wind up providing the same functions but in different programming languages.

                  Either way, people, you are missing the point. FOCUS ON SWIFT. SWIFT MATTERS, METAL DOESN'T. Metal will die out because much unlike OpenGL 1, OpenGL 4.x is actually good compared to it's competition. Chances are like two projects will use Metal and then in two major releases Apple will drop support for it since OpenGL ES by then will likely do what they need it to.
                  To clarify, it doesn't sound quite right.

                  OpenGL ES is actually good compared to it's competition and will likely do exactly what Apple wants it to very shortly*

                  Comment


                  • Well the idea of moving away from Obj-C is a good one since that's just an awful language to have to deal with. Whether or not Swift is any good I don't have any details to judge yet and I think we'll all need some experience with it to see if it's up to snuff.

                    I'm not a big fan of platform-specific languages but Apple has always been an insular company, even a bit more than MS I think. There are a variety of existing languages that likely fit the bill fine which could have been selected. In general I'm kind of frustrated by the industry trend to pop a new fad language every six months. Whether that's Go or Rust or whatever, etc.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by jimbohale View Post
                      The OpenGL ES implementation on Android and iOS are different. They wind up providing the same functions but in different programming languages.
                      What could possibly be much different other than GPU hardware features? The shading language should be the same and the games (engine and logic) will be written in C or C++ on both platforms (if the developer is non-insane). The vast majority of a game's code base is shared.

                      That will definitely not be the case with Metal.

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