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Mir Support Not Merged For Mesa 9.2

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  • rvdboom
    replied
    Originally posted by przemoli View Post
    1) Ubuntu is single BIGGEST Linux distro. Lets talk about REAL Linux users affected. Shall we? (Or maybe for some unfanthomable reason will we start to exclude Linux users?)
    I don't see how it makes any difference.
    It is quite obvious why open source project do not accept distro specific patches :
    - if they do, the project knows that at some point in time, the distro specific code will stop being maintained by the distribution developers and the burden will fall on the usually overwhelmed by work project developers.
    - By keeping distro-specific code out, they make sure that these patches will still being maintained by the distribution developers.

    It is as simple as that. And as long as Mir is Ubuntu-only, whatever the size of Ubuntu market share, any patch for Mir will be considered distro-specific and quite probably rejected.
    Canonical wanted to go their own way, they have to assume the consequences themselves. As long as they do, that's not a problem to anyone and no one is to blame. If they don't, they should not complain to the Mesa team, and so do you.
    It's obviously quite different when you actually participate to the project. You can then influence its directions. Red Hat actually does this rather well.
    But Canonical isn't basically participating to any projects but their own, so they can just blame themselves.

    Originally posted by przemoli View Post
    4) That only show problem within MESA development community. Is Mesa ONLY for specific distros? NO. (Go look at your 1) ) So why they refuse to work with people who have certain requirements for Mesa, and work with others who have very similar requirements? Technical reasons? (Beyound Your FUD)
    See above.
    And yes, I absolutely believe that if Canonical wanted to have the Mir-specific code into upstream mesa, it's definitely to have it supported by the mesa team in the end, instead of doing it themselves. Otherwise, what would be the point in pushing it upstream?

    Leave a comment:


  • przemoli
    replied
    Originally posted by TAXI View Post
    Michael: Nobody thinks any upstream project will accept Mir patches. So don't write news when they are rejected, write news when they are accepted... :P
    Current news is about:

    "Canonical have NO ready code for merging in Mesa9.2"

    Mesa maintainers can not reject code that is not there
    (And rejecting RFC code happen all the time. That is nothing special. In fact its purpose of RFC...)

    Leave a comment:


  • przemoli
    replied
    Here goes typical FUD:
    """
    well to be honest i doubt this patches will be accepted and is probable canonical got the idea already and won't bother anymore in trying

    1.) Mir is a single distro solution that im not sure mesa dev be eager to upstream
    2.) Nobody except canonical uses Mir, so the review process will be hard since mesa devs won't install Mir to test the patches
    3.) Who is going to maintain it? if that is not well defined no one will step to it fix it if it gets broken
    4.) Canonical send a patches already to mesa mailing list and those went straight to /dev/null
    """

    1) Ubuntu is single BIGGEST Linux distro. Lets talk about REAL Linux users affected. Shall we? (Or maybe for some unfanthomable reason will we start to exclude Linux users?)

    2) You suggest that no Mesa folk use Ubuntu as development environment? ITS NOT CANONICAL WHO ONLY USE UBUNTU. Its large distro. Perfectly capable to host development of kernel/mesa/xorg (for now). After Mir will be only thing maintained by Canonical, than devs will need to compile & install kernel/mesa/xorg/wayland on their own. But that IS WHAT THEY DO NOW. Since developing always involve working on bleeding edge.

    3) Are you suggesting that Canonical will push CRITICALLY IMPORTANT code for THEIR MIR EFFORT, and then will not care about bugs in that code? That they will then go and will stop maintining that code upstream, and will only provide downstream fixes? Right, because Canonicall devs all dream about wasting their time and effort on work that will be unneeded by anyone.

    4) That only show problem within MESA development community. Is Mesa ONLY for specific distros? NO. (Go look at your 1) ) So why they refuse to work with people who have certain requirements for Mesa, and work with others who have very similar requirements? Technical reasons? (Beyound Your FUD)

    Leave a comment:


  • V10lator
    replied
    Michael: Nobody thinks any upstream project will accept Mir patches. So don't write news when they are rejected, write news when they are accepted... :P

    Leave a comment:


  • mrugiero
    replied
    Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
    well to be honest i doubt this patches will be accepted and is probable canonical got the idea already and won't bother anymore in trying

    1.) Mir is a single distro solution that im not sure mesa dev be eager to upstream
    2.) Nobody except canonical uses Mir, so the review process will be hard since mesa devs won't install Mir to test the patches
    3.) Who is going to maintain it? if that is not well defined no one will step to it fix it if it gets broken
    4.) Canonical send a patches already to mesa mailing list and those went straight to /dev/null

    Btw Michael is been reported Mir/Xmir is broken in radeon and nouveau drivers, maybe you should check it out as far as i care to look it only works on intel
    I've got to defend Canonical on point 3, here. We've seen several unmaintained drivers (DRI1 drivers had plenty of time to rotten before they reaped them) and trackers (DirectX 10 and 11) on mesa. The first case I recognize they *were* maintained when the patches got accepted (they were probably the most advanced drivers on mesa back then), but DirectX trackers for Gallium were always kind of just an experiment. It would have been good to see them maintained and in use, specially for WINE I think.
    On the other points I agree, provided the (likely) policy of not accepting distro specific patches.

    XMir *kind of* works on my R600. It's slow as hell (seriously slow, far slower than software rasterizer on an older computer with X.org), but except for Mir's cursor freaking the hell out of me, it worked. The fix for the extra cursor was reported to be in the works yesterday, and was tagged as critical. I'm not sure how should I report the performance problems, or how to give measured, maybe reproducible, numbers on the performance that reflect what I'm seeing. I'll look into it, but if someone can give me directions, they will be welcomed.

    Originally posted by boast View Post
    So it is: Open source software... where you can do whatever you want (as long as we approve)?
    No, it is open source software, where you can do whatever you want as long as you don't infringe any license, but you must face the consequences of your choices and stop blaming others for your lack of conscience, and respect that some people might not approve. Nobody is banning them from doing whatever they want, but you can not ban us from pointing out they're being douchebags. And should respect our opinion, and if you want to prove we are wrong, then do it, prove it based on any technical fact. As I stated several times, I'm open to change my mind on the issue, given a reason to. Right now, I gave it a shot to test Xubuntu on top of XMir, and it gave poor performance, just as expected, and an ugly and confusing glitch with the Mir cursor being there at the same time the X.org cursor, out of sync. So, I stand in the same position about running a desktop on XMir. About Mir, I'm still waiting for a reason not to just use Wayland, or at least fork it in a compatible way (i.e., reap out all thing they do not want, while keeping intact what they will, in other words, using a subset of it).

    Leave a comment:


  • LinuxGamer
    replied
    Originally posted by DanL View Post
    That's pretty much my point of view too, and that's good stuff. I just don't want to see phoronix become 4chan...
    well have fun with your Out of Tree Mir/Mesa/UDebian i'm going to play some DOTA 2 on my 25 year old Xserver it's just FUD of phoronix becoming 4chan's

    Leave a comment:


  • entropy
    replied
    Originally posted by boast View Post
    So it is: Open source software... where you can do whatever you want (as long as we approve)?
    Nice try!

    That's not open-source software in general.
    What you are searching for is BSD-style OSS.
    No rules at all means anarchy at its best.

    And I even agree to "as long as we approve":
    Besides the legal aspect, i.e. the license, you always
    have a moral component to a _working_ community.
    I can fully understand if the freedesktop.org community
    does not want to work with/for Canonical anymore.

    Leave a comment:


  • boast
    replied
    So it is: Open source software... where you can do whatever you want (as long as we approve)?

    Leave a comment:


  • DanL
    replied
    Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
    About the haters, not everyone are Canonical haters. Some of us just have personal opinions about different things. If I'd hate Canonical, I wouldn't use any of their products, nor would I test their alphas and betas. This said, I think Mir is an awful choice. They didn't share their needs, and then they started blaming other projects for not fulfilling them, for a start. Then, this needs were actually fulfilled by the time they did their announcement. An open company that takes such a huge decision inside close doors is not really that open. I could keep all day. Then, they throw the testing on the end users. You see why I don't think this is going well? These are all bad choices, and I don't see how pointing this out turns me into a hater. I'm a user, and I will most likely be affected by their choices in one way or another.
    That's pretty much my point of view too, and that's good stuff. I just don't want to see phoronix become 4chan...

    Leave a comment:


  • LinuxGamer
    replied
    Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
    About the haters, not everyone are Canonical haters. Some of us just have personal opinions about different things. If I'd hate Canonical, I wouldn't use any of their products, nor would I test their alphas and betas. This said, I think Mir is an awful choice. They didn't share their needs, and then they started blaming other projects for not fulfilling them, for a start. Then, this needs were actually fulfilled by the time they did their announcement. An open company that takes such a huge decision inside close doors is not really that open. I could keep all day. Then, they throw the testing on the end users. You see why I don't think this is going well? These are all bad choices, and I don't see how pointing this out turns me into a hater. I'm a user, and I will most likely be affected by their choices in one way or another.
    I think Mir is an awful choice as well
    i also think moving away from upstream is an awful choice

    Originally posted by DanL View Post
    This isn't 4chan. Go back to your games.
    have not used in all the day's of my life, it really was a fail for them to move away from upstream and not Build Mir on top of Wayland even more then what they did the we want to do our own Display Server and expecting all of upstream to work for them was just 100% retarded and not just that but use it's user base as tester's.......

    Leave a comment:

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