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More Progress Is Made Understanding Apple's M1 GPU, Working Towards An Open Driver

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  • #21
    Originally posted by lucrus View Post

    Their "ecosystem" is their invention and they designed it the way it is exactly to keep others outside, it's not only casual lack of support for this or that OSS. Their "ecosystem" includes many "features" that are at best useless to the end user, but they're there nevertheless because they help keeping the thing hard or impossible to hack (in the positive meaning of the term).
    Good or bad doesn't make a lot of difference here, Apple believes making the hardware / software difficult to hack is a good thing for both Apple and its customers. Frankly this is the same attitude the Linux kernel developers have with their stress on security.
    The M1 is not such a beast of performance or whatever when you consider its price (and when you run something on it other than just Apple benchmarks) and compare it with other offerings at the same pricetag, so why bother making your own hardware when there already are equivalent or better choices out there?
    Repeating non sense does not make it true!!!!!! I'm sitting right now in front of an M1 Air that is PASSIVELY cooled and I can't think of a single machine that competes with it in any price range. That is offers the same level of performance in a fanless laptop. This machine highlights why I was so interested in getting an Arm based laptop that doesn't suck in the first place.
    Because that's the only way to keep the ecosystem closed enough.
    It is somewhat closed not completely closed. Frankly it is more open than your average Chrome running ARM based notebook and much faster to boot.
    Take for example old Windows-only GDI printers: it was a whole different story. In that case the goal was to make a printer cost less than its ink cartridge, so almost no RAM, almost no CPU, almost anything onboard: just the bare minimum to talk to a Windows-only GDI driver. It took reverse engineering to have those paperweights somewhat working outside of Windows, but the hardware maker didn't get in the way on purpose, they just targeted a specific market that wasn't Linux users in order to cut production costs.

    Apple is different. They think different, you know. They think how to keep their users from using anything non-Apple.
    Baloney! There is a lot of hardware that works perfectly fine on Apples hardware including printers. Not all vendors support Apples hardware and and operating systems but then again there is third party Apple specific hardware that barely runs on other platforms. It isn't up to Apple to get third parties to run on their OS it is up to the hardware developer. Just like in the Windows world there is all sorts of hardware that will not run under Linux or Mac OS. Given that I have to say that most of the hardware that can run on Mac OS has far better drivers than what is in the Windows world.

    From my point of view you have many non arguments here or complete misunderstandings about Apple Silicon. M1 isn't perfect and frankly has significant short comings for much of Apples hardware needs (thus the low end machines), but the hardware and software combo is far better than you are alluding too. In fact I'm rather stunned at just how well Apple has been able to pull off this platform change. The volume of software that is already ARM native is surprising and the stuff that isn't often runs very well on the machines. Objectively it is hard not to be impressed by what Apple has achieved.

    Now would I prefer an ARM based laptop running Linux with all native drivers - most likely I would. In fact this M1 based Apple hardware has me salivating at the thought. If Apple drags the rest of the industry over to ARM, I will be very happy indeed. The reality is that I've never had an x86 platform, with the required performance, that has the battery life these systems have. Never! More so I don't see such a machine coming anytime soon. Though it has become a bit of a joke, x86 laptops only run cool when doing nothing, they are otherwise power hogs.

    I can actually see Apple adding a strip of solar cells along the top of the keyboards and actually getting useful power relative to the rest of the system. They will not be able to eliminate batteries anytime soon but should be able to offer real run time extension in many situations. That is how good Apple Silicon is and will only get better moving forward. Even if that strip only offered one watt of power it would positively impact battery run time per charge. In a very real sense we have a new generation of hardware that can lead to a new way of looking at devices. I just want to see such capabilities in the Linux world, so if somebody hacking drivers, for M1, can help lead to that I'm all for it. Would I prefer a more open ARM chip with better software support from the vendor - certainly (I hope AMD is listening) - but sometime companies need a kick in the virtual pants to step outside of their comfort zones. Who knows maybe AMD collaboration with Samsung (I think) will lead to an ARM based SoC with open GPU hardware. Of course we still need to get a builder to put that chip in a laptop.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by Vistaus View Post

      More ports? But everyone, even Apple fans, is always saying that Apple won't add any more ports to their products…
      Actually they did add more ports and frankly that is why I look at my M1 Air as a better option, amongst a number of things, than a tablet. I think it is fair to say though that on Apples larger platforms the Apple fan base has been real hard on Apple with respect to ports. Almost everyone wants apple to correct their stupidity with the port hardware we have on the so called "pro" machines.

      Until the advent of M1 Apples Mac line has been pretty stagnant to the point I had to wonder if they where trying to kill the entire line off. So the hope is that M1 and the processor moving forward will lead to a rapid advancement of the hardware offering and frankly far more innovation. For example why does an M1 computer have to be any thing more substantial than a Keyboard? Or why not make a Mini with a real discreet GPU that doesn't suck. The thermal envelope of these processors just opens up a massive number of possibilities with new design.

      Dave

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      • #23
        I wouldn't wonder Apple designed the GPU as much as possible around patents.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by Imroy View Post

          I'm more hopeful for RISC-V myself.
          But Apple M1 has no competition.


          (Altra and A64FX don't count; those are big iron oriented)

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          • #25
            Originally posted by wizard69 View Post
            Repeating non sense does not make it true!!!!!! I'm sitting right now in front of an M1 Air that is PASSIVELY cooled and I can't think of a single machine that competes with it in any price range. That is offers the same level of performance in a fanless laptop. This machine highlights why I was so interested in getting an Arm based laptop that doesn't suck in the first place.
            The high end Zen 3 mobile chips are competitive with the M1. It's definitely impressive though, particularly in terms of power use.

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            • #26
              Cool design. Nice to see that there are still engineers with taste at Apple, even if the finished product feels like garbage to use for any practical purpose (mostly due to software, and in the case of the laptops, severe tradeoffs between thermal performance and sleekness.. also weird and product-destroying board design defects).
              Last edited by microcode; 19 April 2021, 06:47 PM.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by paradroid View Post
                I wouldn't wonder Apple designed the GPU as much as possible around patents.
                My company purchased an M1 for iOS dev/testing; the GPU is pretty bitchin' so I have to say, it seems that their design direction paid off.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by Ironmask View Post
                  How adorable, they specifically designed M1 to not support Vulkan so when benchmarked, Metal will out-perform it.
                  No. They built a minimalist GPU based on the needs of their graphics API, and a similarly minimal CPU built on the real-world needs of their customers. They didn't intentionally omit Vulkan, they just have no interest in spending transistor real estate on anything that they themselves don't need, and their customers love it.

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                  • #29
                    My company purchased an M1 for iOS dev/testing; the GPU is pretty bitchin' so I have to say, it seems that their design direction paid off.
                    Just watched some YouTube videos of Metro Exodus running on M1. It is not to bad, definitely way better than Intel onboardgraphics.

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                    • #30
                      Damn, she's a real legend and an inspiration. Just the thought of working on hardware with no documentation and a lot of frustrating blocks and lack of knowledge feels like too much work for me. Hats off to her and others.

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