Gallium Nine Still Seeing Improvements In 2021 For Direct3D 9 Within Mesa

[Dukenukemx]

Then You obviously haven't done a proper comparison between DXVK & Gallium-Nine with one of the most demanding game making use of the Direct3D 9 API:
Grand Theft Auto IV

Hint:
Gallium-Nine doesn't even stand a chance...

Hell, with DXVK, it runs even better than running it natively on Windows!

Pics or it didn't happen. Actually a video would be nice.

[unic0rn]

Pics or it didn't happen. Actually a video would be nice.

even that doesn't prove much.

dxvk's performance depends heavily on the hardware and drivers - some hardware may run a game great, while another with similar raw performance will behave much worse just because dxvk wasn't optimized for it. it's even worse with "corner cases" like older architectures or integrated graphics.

nine runs on top of the gallium layer, so whatever optimizations were to be done, they were done and tested already for every supported hardware. that's the beauty of using higher level api - a lot of the optimization work was already done. everyone knows mesa's opengl runs great, nine is no different because it uses the same gallium backend.

that's not to say vulkan isn't the way forward for gaming at this point - but only because it's well suited to translation of some newer apis, like dx12. the fact that it's low level has its pitfalls as it isn't trivial to translate higher level apis like dx9/dx10/dx11 to vulkan while keeping the performance consistent across wide range of devices. on my hardware nine is usually 10-20fps faster on average than dxvk. nine often beats native windows performance, while dxvk is way behind. dx11 part of dxvk seems to be better optimized, it's still slower than windows but the performance drop isn't as drastic as in the case of dx9.

also, vulkan is the way with newer technologies like raytracing and variable-rate shading. it's actually the main case where i would consider using vulkan or dx12 in a game engine, because if one doesn't need new features that aren't available on older apis, there's usually no real need to use vulkan since it won't magically make everything run faster. it will allow skilled developers to squeeze out more performance from the hardware, assuming there's a bottleneck caused by underperforming dx11/opengl/whatever driver, but on its own vulkan does nothing. poorly optimized vulkan code will run worse than poorly optimized opengl code under linux, since opengl benefits from gallium-level optimizations, while vulkan requires those optimizations to be done in the client - in this case, dxvk. the whole vulkan fanboyism needs to stop, it's pure nonsense.

what i would personally love to see is continuation of work on the dx10/dx11-gallium front. gallium eleven would be almost guaranteed to beat the hell out of dxvk performance, while likely performing better than windows.

there's another side to this whole situation, and especially to benchmarking nine and dxvk against windows, and that's the fact microsoft won't support old apis indefinitely. dx9 already saw some performance drop, in time dx11 will follow. it's most likely the reason why game developers are shifting towards dx12 and vulkan - their game could perform just fine on older api, while being easier to develop, but with time and new windows (and driver) updates released, it will change.

as a result, games using dx9 already perform better under linux, at least under nine. with time, the same will be true for dx11 games, especially if gallium eleven becomes a thing. dxvk may match that performance on fast hardware for which it is properly optimized, but personally i think it's just a waste of resources. there are years of work behind gallium and every state tracker on top benefits from that. dx12 on vulkan? sure, good choice. dx9/dx11? it's just a waste. with all due respect towards dxvk developers, if the initial choice would be to work on gallium state tracker for dx11 instead of using vulkan as a translation target, linux gaming would be in a much better place right now.

as it is, whenever i'm playing a dx9 game, i always try using nine first, since i know it'll run circles around dxvk performance-wise. in some case it won't work at all, in some cases there are some weird glitches, but when it works, it's a wonder.

also, there's another reason to focus on older (dx11) games. hardware prices won't be going down anytime soon, since the cost per transistor won't be going down, so new generations of gpus will only get more expensive. in the end, most people will see all those shiny vulkan tech running via streaming on remote servers, not locally, because buying a high-end gaming pc will be a waste of cash. i've finished cyberpunk on stadia, we're halfway there already.

[unic0rn]

We tried that. It still crashed sometimes.

try this: https://github.com/randomstuff/pe-set-laa

i've had quite a few games having glitches and/or crashes with nine, setting large address aware flag usually fixes it. proton can do it automatically.

[Chewi]

try this: https://github.com/randomstuff/pe-set-laa

i've had quite a few games having glitches and/or crashes with nine, setting large address aware flag usually fixes it. proton can do it automatically.

Yep, tried that too using Proton.

[kiffmet]

unic0rn A simple reason for using Vulkan for DX9-DX11 translation is that the majority of users has a NVidia GPU. There is no properly working opensource driver for them and hence no Gallium. I prefer a solution that is accessible to as many people as possible over one that possibly has better performance. We're at a point in hardware development, where even lower end hardware can run legacy DX11 games via DXVK without tanking too much performance anyway.

[Dukenukemx]

what i would personally love to see is continuation of work on the dx10/dx11-gallium front. gallium eleven would be almost guaranteed to beat the hell out of dxvk performance, while likely performing better than windows.

Yes please, that would be awesome. As great as DXVK has been, the reality is that a Gallium Eleven would perform better. DXVK is great and I've love to see more come out of it, but Gallium Eleven is the way to go. I also have a lot of older hardware that can't make use of Vulkan but can make use of Gallium Nine.

also, there's another reason to focus on older (dx11) games. hardware prices won't be going down anytime soon, since the cost per transistor won't be going down, so new generations of gpus will only get more expensive. in the end, most people will see all those shiny vulkan tech running via streaming on remote servers, not locally, because buying a high-end gaming pc will be a waste of cash. i've finished cyberpunk on stadia, we're halfway there already.

I agree except for cloud gaming. It just won't happen. You could play Cyberpunk on Stadia but not without compromises. Compromises that can't be fixed without breaking the laws of physics. In a situation like this with overpriced hardware, you'll see the consumer adjust and adapt. Intel will make GPU's and I feel so will others. The GPU market is profitable and I feel other companies see opportunity to jump in. Having two companies make GPU's is going to create price fixing, which is what I feel is happening right now.

[Dukenukemx]

unic0rn A simple reason for using Vulkan for DX9-DX11 translation is that the majority of users has a NVidia GPU. There is no properly working opensource driver for them and hence no Gallium. I prefer a solution that is accessible to as many people as possible over one that possibly has better performance. We're at a point in hardware development, where even lower end hardware can run legacy DX11 games via DXVK without tanking too much performance anyway.

I would rather push Nvidia to contribute to open source drivers instead of us having to cater to Nvidia's lack of open source drivers. You can see the crap that Nvidia is pulling lately in how effective Nvidia lets you use your GPU for crypto mining. As someone who has bought many mining cards for cheap after the BitCoin market crashes, I don't welcome Nvidia's interference of what people do with their GPU's. I'd rather see improves to Nouveau. Intel already supports Gallium and technically Intel is far more popular than Nvidia is for GPU's.

[unic0rn]

I agree except for cloud gaming. It just won't happen. You could play Cyberpunk on Stadia but not without compromises. Compromises that can't be fixed without breaking the laws of physics. In a situation like this with overpriced hardware, you'll see the consumer adjust and adapt. Intel will make GPU's and I feel so will others. The GPU market is profitable and I feel other companies see opportunity to jump in. Having two companies make GPU's is going to create price fixing, which is what I feel is happening right now.

compromises? well, sub-1080p native rendering at 60fps, so i chose quality mode for sharper picture. that's about it, at least until google upgrades their servers. input latency? not noticeable. streaming really works.

as for prices, it's not that simple. it's not just crypto boom. microsoft said they've released xbox series s already, because cost per transistor won't be going down with smaller process. they're buying custom chips from amd, they know what they're talking about.

and then there's this: https://www.tweaktown.com/news/78131...200/index.html

when cost per transistor isn't going down, faster hardware - meaning, with more transistors - will be getting more and more expensive, even when using smaller manufacturing process. that's why they're going after multi-chip designs, to lower the cost somewhat - more smaller chips = better yield = smaller cost per chip. but even that won't prevent prices from going up, it'll just slow it down.

5-8 years down the line average gamer won't be able to afford a graphics card capable of running latest AAA games at high details. microsoft knows this, amazon knows this, and google knows this. microsoft considers google and amazon their main competition as far as xbox is concerned - because the future isn't in their consoles, it's in their xcloud streaming platform - and in google's stadia, and amazon's luna.

people may not like what is coming, but thinking that next generations of gpus will have reasonable prices is just naive.

[unic0rn]

unic0rn A simple reason for using Vulkan for DX9-DX11 translation is that the majority of users has a NVidia GPU. There is no properly working opensource driver for them and hence no Gallium. I prefer a solution that is accessible to as many people as possible over one that possibly has better performance. We're at a point in hardware development, where even lower end hardware can run legacy DX11 games via DXVK without tanking too much performance anyway.

"without tanking too much"? how much is "too much"? what's the difference compared to native windows experience? what's the difference compared to what would be possible with Gallium Eleven?

as i've said, i'm getting 10-20fps difference on average between nine and dxvk. it varies, and dxvk performs better with dx11, but even 10fps difference on a lower end hardware is A LOT.

also, i assume that by lower end hardware you mean intel/amd integrated graphics. new nvidia gpus aren't exactly lowend, even gt 1030 is reasonably fast, whereas older things like kepler have terrible performance under dxvk.

I would rather push Nvidia to contribute to open source drivers instead of us having to cater to Nvidia's lack of open source drivers. You can see the crap that Nvidia is pulling lately in how effective Nvidia lets you use your GPU for crypto mining. As someone who has bought many mining cards for cheap after the BitCoin market crashes, I don't welcome Nvidia's interference of what people do with their GPU's. I'd rather see improves to Nouveau. Intel already supports Gallium and technically Intel is far more popular than Nvidia is for GPU's.

exactly this. also, what Linus said.

what's the point of catering to them just because they have the market share? what's next, development of solutions that will work best on nvidia, effectively locking people out of options, because "if you want good gaming experience on linux, buy nvidia gpu"? one could argue that going the gallium route is the same thing, but gallium is supported by two vendors already, not one. it's nvidia that's trying to go against the community, not the other way around.

i have nothing against nvidia in general, i'm excited for upcoming nintendo switch pro, which will most likely have nvidia's dlss, as that will be a revolution. that being said, we cannot let nvidia dictate what works and what doesn't. if they don't wanna support gallium, they can go to hell.

[Dukenukemx]

compromises? well, sub-1080p native rendering at 60fps, so i chose quality mode for sharper picture. that's about it, at least until google upgrades their servers. input latency? not noticeable. streaming really works.

Really? That's your list of compromises? Not input lag? Not in image quality as Gamers Nexus said, "It looks a video you compressed and then recompressed multiple times, and transcoded multiple times." Not all games are 4K 60fps, as they render at 30fps. Some games that output 4k are actually 1080p upscale.

as for prices, it's not that simple. it's not just crypto boom.

It's also rampant unemployment and a lack of supply.

microsoft said they've released xbox series s already, because cost per transistor won't be going down with smaller process. they're buying custom chips from amd, they know what they're talking about.

Microsoft? What would we the Linux community care what Microsoft says? Also, Xbox One didn't do well. Remember when Microsoft was going to prevent used games? Remember the Kinect? Microsoft sure knows what they're talking about. :rolleyes:

5-8 years down the line average gamer won't be able to afford a graphics card capable of running latest AAA games at high details. microsoft knows this, amazon knows this, and google knows this. microsoft considers google and amazon their main competition as far as xbox is concerned - because the future isn't in their consoles, it's in their xcloud streaming platform - and in google's stadia, and amazon's luna.

They hope it's in the cloud. The problem is the lack of competition to lower prices, not the hardware itself. Don't worry, nobody expects the Intel Inquisition. Once GPU's have more competition the price of GPU's will become sane again.

people may not like what is coming, but thinking that next generations of gpus will have reasonable prices is just naive.

Dude, this is Linux. If they can't lower the price of GPU's then we do what Linux people do. We hack the PS5 and Xbox Series X and install Linux and play games through Steam. We've done it with the PS4 and we'll do it again. Don't worry, we'll figure it out. We don't need to worry about cloud gaming and it's awful image quality and input lag. We don't need to stream hundreds of gigabytes to play a game like Sonic Mania which is a 300MB download. We don't need to worry about blowing through our data caps. Besides, Google has already abandoned Stadia. Stadia is dead Jim.