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  • #31
    Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Really? That's your list of compromises? Not input lag? Not in image quality as Gamers Nexus said, "It looks a video you compressed and then recompressed multiple times, and transcoded multiple times." Not all games are 4K 60fps, as they render at 30fps. Some games that output 4k are actually 1080p upscale.

    and here i thought you were reasonable...

    you are aware that that video is from 2019, right? that stadia team worked on improving their technology stack all that time, right? you think that all those people, including Digital Foundry folks, claiming that stadia is a good place to play cyberpunk, are delusional?

    or perhaps you just have no idea what you're talking about, because your opinion about stadia is based on hearsay from more than a year ago instead of first hand experience?

    Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    It's also rampant unemployment and a lack of supply.
    yes, lack of supply that isn't going anywhere for now.

    Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Microsoft? What would we the Linux community care what Microsoft says? Also, Xbox One didn't do well. Remember when Microsoft was going to prevent used games? Remember the Kinect? Microsoft sure knows what they're talking about. :rolleyes:
    ah, the good old Stallmanism in action.

    we're talking about hardware, gpus specifically, and it just so happens that microsoft is in a business of manufacturing those. as a result, i guess they know a bit more about the subject than you do.

    Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    They hope it's in the cloud. The problem is the lack of competition to lower prices, not the hardware itself. Don't worry, nobody expects the Intel Inquisition. Once GPU's have more competition the price of GPU's will become sane again.
    i have nothing against intel, and i wish them best with xe graphics. that being said, repeat after me:

    THE. PRICE. PER. TRANSISTOR. WILL. NOT. BE. GOING. DOWN. MUCH. ANYMORE.

    this is industry-wide problem, affecting both gpus and cpus. until technological breakthrough happens, it won't be going anywhere either.

    sure, there are profit margins that can get cuts, in theory. in practice, when your corporation's stock is publicly traded, you have obligations towards your investors. you have to increase profits and increase company evaluation, not decrease them.

    and the truth is, they don't have to cut their profit margins at all. look at what's going on with gpus right now. prices are simply insane, yet people buy everything. this isn't even because of miners, there's just enough people to buy the currently available stock at those prices. they have the money, they see the product, "200% msrp? whatever", they click buy. why would anyone drop their prices in such situation?

    once the availability gets better (not so fast), prices will go down to their normal values, but next generations of hardware - both gpus and cpus - will cost more (at least faster chips - with more transistors). and guess what happens when the average consumer can no longer afford that top of the line chips? streaming becomes a thing and automatically corporations like google, microsoft and amazon need more of those chips. average customer won't buy those chips - corporations will. why would they lower their prices at that point? they have to sell their chips with maximum profit. they don't have to sell them to YOU.

    Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Dude, this is Linux. If they can't lower the price of GPU's then we do what Linux people do. We hack the PS5 and Xbox Series X and install Linux and play games through Steam. We've done it with the PS4 and we'll do it again. Don't worry, we'll figure it out. We don't need to worry about cloud gaming and it's awful image quality and input lag. We don't need to stream hundreds of gigabytes to play a game like Sonic Mania which is a 300MB download. We don't need to worry about blowing through our data caps. Besides, Google has already abandoned Stadia. Stadia is dead Jim.
    believe whatever fairytales you wish. they wouldn't talk about built-in stadia client for LG TVs few months ahead of release if it was going anywhere.

    besides, i gave you the picture, wether you elect to ignore it, won't change it. microsoft, amazon and google are all preparing for what's ahead, because they know game streaming market will be worth billions. it's a long term game and whatever FUD people spread about it now, doesn't matter for them at all.

    it isn't a bad thing for linux though, which you could perhaps notice if you weren't so blinded with hatred. once current AAA games will be running mostly in the cloud, playing them on linux is straightforward. launch chromium, done. but that isn't even the biggest thing.

    when new blockbusters move to the cloud, all that remains for the average gamer to play on his pc are older games. and we all know how well microsoft supports older apis and games - dx9 is a prime example. at that point linux will be the best choice for gaming, simply because it is better at supporting older software and hardware.

    but please, go ahead and "REEEEE" because the gaming world doesn't revolve around linux just yet.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by unic0rn View Post

      and here i thought you were reasonable...
      I'm starting to think you're T4rd from HardOCP. Your responses are nearly the same as his. Either that or the Stadia PR team is giving the same pointers.
      you are aware that that video is from 2019, right?
      Introducing the follow up video. According to Gamers Nexus nothing has changed.

      that stadia team worked on improving their technology stack all that time, right?
      That means their product wasn't ready when it was released. Just PR excuse that they can't solve the speed of light issue.
      you think that all those people, including Digital Foundry folks, claiming that stadia is a good place to play cyberpunk, are delusional?
      Yep! Speaking of delusional, why aren't we pissed off that us Linux guys can't get a native Linux port of Cyberpunk like Stadia has? Instead of us having to mess with Wine, DXVK, and etc?
      or perhaps you just have no idea what you're talking about, because your opinion about stadia is based on hearsay from more than a year ago instead of first hand experience?
      I'm a networking engineer and trust me, cloud gaming will never happen. I don't need first hand experience to know that 250ms input lag is bad. That's the input lag you get playing Stadia on Google's Chromecast, with an Ethernet wire.
      yes, lack of supply that isn't going anywhere for now.
      And? The GTX 1060 is still the #1 graphics card on Steam, and that's a 5 year old GPU. Even the RTX 2k cards hardly have a presence on Steam, let alone the 3k cards. Forget AMD's RDNA cards, both the RX 5k and 6k cards. People are sticking to old hardware because it works. Let AMD and Nvidia figure out how to deal with people who aren't dumping their GTX 1060's. Doesn't matter anyway because the PS5 is equivalent to a GTX 1070 Super. Sometimes a GTX 1060 as well. Guess who performed that test?

      we're talking about hardware, gpus specifically, and it just so happens that microsoft is in a business of manufacturing those. as a result, i guess they know a bit more about the subject than you do.
      Apparently not with the Xbox One sales. Also AMD, Nvidia, Sony, and Microsoft all have some involvement in cloud gaming services. You don't think that's a conflict of interest? We need more GPU competitors not to cave in to cloud gaming.

      THE. PRICE. PER. TRANSISTOR. WILL. NOT. BE. GOING. DOWN. MUCH. ANYMORE.

      this is industry-wide problem, affecting both gpus and cpus. until technological breakthrough happens, it won't be going anywhere either.
      Don't give me that transistor cost nonsense. Can I buy the APU's in the PS5 or Xbox Series X? I'll gladly pay $500 for either one on a motherboard. You can buy an Xbox One APU on a motherboard for $136, so why not what's in the PS5 and Xbox Series X? I'll gladly pay that much for a complete package that can run Linux.


      sure, there are profit margins that can get cuts, in theory. in practice, when your corporation's stock is publicly traded, you have obligations towards your investors. you have to increase profits and increase company evaluation, not decrease them.
      Yea but as a consumer I like it to go the other way. BTW AMD and Nvidia have been caught price fixing in the past. Isn't it odd that both AMD and Nvidia are avoiding the $200-$300 market? You know, the most popular market according to Steam? Isn't it odd that the GTX 1060 is still the #1 GPU on Steam's hardware survey? Isn't it odd that AMD is involved with Stadia and Nvidia has Geforce Now?

      once the availability gets better (not so fast), prices will go down to their normal values, but next generations of hardware - both gpus and cpus - will cost more (at least faster chips - with more transistors). and guess what happens when the average consumer can no longer afford that top of the line chips?
      Generally when consumers can't afford the things they want then they find alternatives. But cloud gaming is hardly an alternative. No emulators. No mods. Stadia forces you to buy their games from their stores, and no other place. Certainly no piracy, at least not like traditional piracy anyway. Most consumers at this point will continue to use their old hardware. I certainly have no reason to upgrade my Vega 56 for another 2-3 years. It performs roughly like a PS5 anyway minus Ray-Tracing. I'd use my RX 480 if something happened to my Vega 56.

      We've actually been though a similar situation. Remember the whole, "but can it run Crysis" meme? There was a point where Nvidia's GPU's were $500-$700 back in 2008 money. Not like AMD and Nvidia didn't get in involved in consoles and started pumping up the price of desktop GPU's? The Xbox 360 and PS3 dominated that generation and us PC gamers got terrible console ports, if we're lucky. People right now will either keep their old hardware or buy a PS5. AMD makes money either way, while Nvidia hopes you're wallet grew 5x and pay more for a GPU. Either that or use Geforce Now, which is still a win for Nvidia. Intel isn't exactly affiliated with cloud gaming, which is why I want them to enter the market.

      streaming becomes a thing and automatically corporations like google, microsoft and amazon need more of those chips. average customer won't buy those chips - corporations will. why would they lower their prices at that point? they have to sell their chips with maximum profit. they don't have to sell them to YOU.
      At some point others will join the GPU market. They don't have to be as power efficient and as fast as AMD's and Nvidia's. They just have to be fast enough and affordable. Besides the stuff they buy for Cloud Gaming is not gaming hardware. They buy Intel Xeons and Nvidia Tesla's to power the servers, not Intel I9's and RTX 3080's. Besides it just ends up for sale on Alibaba for a fraction of the cost anyway when it's time for them to upgrade. I got a 8 core 3.1Ghz broadwell Xeon with motherboard and 16GB of ram for less than $200.
      it isn't a bad thing for linux though, which you could perhaps notice if you weren't so blinded with hatred. once current AAA games will be running mostly in the cloud, playing them on linux is straightforward. launch chromium, done. but that isn't even the biggest thing.
      That's not how I envision playing Linux games. Especially not with input lag. I'd rather pull out my old Sega Genesis instead of dealing with delayed input. I didn't want 60fps to get input lag. Generally higher fps lowers input lag.
      but please, go ahead and "REEEEE" because the gaming world doesn't revolve around linux just yet.
      You do know cloud gaming isn't new? I'm not the one "REEE"ing here. Geforce Now which was known as Geforce GRID has been around since 2008 and continues to fail. Geforce Now has been altered so many times that it's a wonder that Nvidia even tries. You'd think that failing a third time would be it for Geforce Now. Playstation Now is 7 years old and has less users than people bought a Nokia Ngage. Stadia has failed and that's why Google is removing exclusives. No surprise there since Google isn't known to get behind many of their failed projects. Anyone using Stadia is wasting their money, because those games are not transferable outside of Stadia. While Microsoft hasn't released their cloud service, I don't think that will perform any better. Especially if you consider the fact that the Xbox brand is dead. No amount of affirmative action is going to make Xbox relevant again. Wasn't it a month ago when Microsoft tried to double the cost of Xbox Live Gold? Microsoft's gaming division is run by idiots.

      I'm not saying that the world does revolve around Linux, though one can dream. I'm saying that nobody cares about cloud gaming and its input lag. The lack of market share is enough to prove me right. Especially during a pandemic which has forced people to stay indoors and caused an explosion of gaming hardware to skyrocket in value. You don't see Stadia gaining exclusives but losing them, meaning nobody is using it. Good reason for that.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
        I'm starting to think you're T4rd from HardOCP. Your responses are nearly the same as his. Either that or the Stadia PR team is giving the same pointers.
        Good luck with that.

        Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
        Introducing the follow up video. According to Gamers Nexus nothing has changed.
        Check the date of that video. Then look at the calendar.

        Then either facepalm or stop being a dishonest troll.

        Or both.

        Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
        YADDA YADDA
        Assuming the rest is on the same level as the quotes above, I'm not going to waste my time.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by unic0rn View Post
          Check the date of that video. Then look at the calendar.

          Then either facepalm or stop being a dishonest troll.

          Or both.
          That's a 7 month old video. How recent of a video you need? Stadia has been out for nearly 2 years, so at what point was the service functioning optimally?
          Assuming the rest is on the same level as the quotes above, I'm not going to waste my time.
          Then let me leave you with another thought so you aren't another Google employee going around spreading misinformation about the potential of cloud gaming. Cloud gaming can't do VR. VR is extremely dependent on low latency to pull off the effect. It's the same problem as using a mouse cursor in a FPS game in cloud gaming. I'm sure you've noticed the delay in moving the moue in cloud gaming. I lose my mind using the wireless moue on my HTPC hooked up to a TV. It's far worse with a Xbox 360 wireless controller. There's a night and day different between my main PC with a wired keyboard and mouse on a proper monitor vs my HTPC with a wireless mouse and keyboard on a TV that isn't build for low latency. Since VR headsets have head tracking then cloud gaming is impossible. Valve has shown us that VR does have a future... once the hardware is cheap enough. So it's VR or cloud gaming and the two aren't compatible with each other.

          Again remember I'm a networking engineer and there's no solution to latency other than reducing nodes and moving the hardware closer to the user. It's a speed of light issue. No amount of networking technology is going to fix this issue. The premise of cloud gaming is, "lets hope the users are ok with a little input lag". There's a lot of misinformation being spread about the issue of the input lag. There's a reason why most people who tried cloud gaming never go back to it. You get a better picture on a GTX 1030 with DDR4 than cloud gaming, because the image needs to be compressed a lot. Then you have issues like data caps because it doesn't matter if you're streaming COD or Sonic Mania, the amount of data used stays the same. You can't fix data caps because you're limited by your ISP selection. StarLink might fix this but StarLink has an inherently high latency due to it being in space.

          Best thing to do is stick with problems we know we can solve like DXVK and Gallium Eleven, and not impossible to solve problems like cloud gaming input lag. Repeat after me, "cloud gaming has no future". The only people who promote cloud gaming are corporate trolls that never played video games.
          Last edited by Dukenukemx; 09 March 2021, 01:18 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
            That's a 7 month old video. How recent of a video you need? Stadia has been out for nearly 2 years, so at what point was the service functioning optimally?

            Then let me leave you with another thought so you aren't another Google employee going around spreading misinformation about the potential of cloud gaming.
            i don't work for google. and the only person spreading misinformation here, is you.

            250ms lag my ass. 30ms average network latency between me and stadia datacenter - in central europe. input lag really isn't noticeable, but you won't believe me, and you're too lazy to just check it out yourself, despite the fact it's free.

            as for xbox being dead and microsoft not releasing their cloud service yet - actually, they did. it's called xcloud and is part of game pass ultimate. for now it's focused on mobile, with pc support being in testing stage - they have to upgrade their servers from old xbox one s, because for now xcloud delivers 720p. but sure, xbox is dead, while microsoft just bought zenimax for several billions.

            as for several months old video, that's ages when it comes to online service. i get it, i've been there. ridiculing stadia, laughing at youtube videos showing input lag reaching SECONDS right after premiere. but that was then. stadia launched here in december. i've tried it, i know better. i wouldn't be easily landing headshots (with aim assist disabled) in cyberpunk during my over 100h of gameplay if stadia was as shit as you describe it.

            and of course cloud gaming isn't an option for VR. noone said it is. you're just switching goalposts when confronted with the fact you have no idea what you're talking about. where's that toxicity coming from? google is shit, microsoft is shit, stadia is shit, xbox is shit, everyone not praising linux is shit, and i'm google's shill, right?

            either calm down or put your network engineering skills to good use and take down your connection.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by unic0rn View Post
              250ms lag my ass. 30ms average network latency between me and stadia datacenter
              We're not just talking about network latency here. We're talking about overall input latency. Gamers Nexus shows in their video that when they hit the button and see the action on the screen on Google's ChromeCast, it takes about 250ms. Games have their own latency. Higher framerates lower that latency. Your input device plays a role. Your monitor or TV has latency. Why you think PC's still have PS2 ports? Compared to USB, the PS2 port has lower input lag. Some Esports players do use PS2 in favor of USB. The more demanding the game is the more input lag you'll experience. This is why a game like Thumper is perfectly fine on Stadia but Red Dead Redemption 2 is not.
              - in central europe. input lag really isn't noticeable, but you won't believe me, and you're too lazy to just check it out yourself, despite the fact it's free.
              It's not free. You using wireless? Just the idea of using cloud gaming is going to add latency. Back when we have the Nforce chipsets, one of the features that Nvidia introduced was the ability to bypass the PCI bus to go straight to the CPU to lower network latency. I use an Intel network adapter in my Ryzen PC to lower latency. A network ping is not going to represent the actual latency you experience when you play on the cloud.
              as for xbox being dead and microsoft not releasing their cloud service yet - actually, they did. it's called xcloud and is part of game pass ultimate. for now it's focused on mobile, with pc support being in testing stage - they have to upgrade their servers from old xbox one s, because for now xcloud delivers 720p. but sure, xbox is dead, while microsoft just bought zenimax for several billions.
              Microsoft bought Rareware and look how that worked out. The Zenimax purchase is not a good thing for PC and Playstation gamers. Xbox is dead because nearly all the exclusives are on Windows and some are on the Switch. Xbox is dead because Microsoft stopped reporting how many Xbox Ones they sold at around 45 million. So we don't accurately know how many Xbox Ones are sold. It's certainly less than half of the PS4. It's even less than the Switch.
              stadia launched here in december. i've tried it, i know better. i wouldn't be easily landing headshots (with aim assist disabled) in cyberpunk during my over 100h of gameplay if stadia was as shit as you describe it.
              Cyberpunk is only a problem for console users. My RX 480 ran the game just fine on my Linux Mint PC. Had a hell of a time to get it to run with Wine, but it now runs.
              and of course cloud gaming isn't an option for VR. noone said it is. you're just switching goalposts when confronted with the fact you have no idea what you're talking about.
              The point I'm making is that cloud gaming has no future. It doesn't work now, and it certainly won't in the future. Again, no emulators. No mods to games. No piracy.
              where's that toxicity coming from? google is shit, microsoft is shit, stadia is shit, xbox is shit, everyone not praising linux is shit, and i'm google's shill, right?
              Linux is shit. You gotta understand that just because I'm critical towards something doesn't mean you should ignore it and run away crying. Linux needs a lot of work, and I feel that Linux has gotten worse in the past few years. Consoles are a walled garden, so fudge them. Stadia wishes it was a walled garden.

              My advice to Stadia is to not focus on cloud gaming but make it like a bonus feature. That's what Sony and Microsoft are doing. Open a store on Windows and offer games bought on their store to be usable on Stadia as well as local gaming. I would even go so far to open on store on Linux since their games are already running on Linux. Stadia would get more praise that way, and believe me Stadia needs all the praise it can get. Let the cloud gaming service appeal to customers naturally, instead of it being forced down consumers like how Stadia is doing it now. Stadia is asking consumers to dump their Playstation, Xbox, and PC library to start a whole new library... on the cloud. You know, a service that could ban you and force you to lose all the games you purchased because you called someone a bad word.
              either calm down or put your network engineering skills to good use and take down your connection.
              If you're not T4rd from HardOCP then that means Google has another bunch of corporate trolls going on forums to feed propaganda. I shit in that thread too, which is odd timing. Do me a favor and tell your superiors what I said they should do. I expect to see a native Linux port of Cyberpunk 2077 sometime this year or we talk more about DXVK and Gallium Eleven. You don't want to see me talk about DXVK and Gallium Nine.
              Last edited by Dukenukemx; 09 March 2021, 04:59 PM.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                It's not free.
                except it is. you get pro trial for the first month, giving access to 4k/hdr/5.1 and some games, after which you don't have to keep it, there's free tier, which gives you access to destiny 2 and one other game as i recall, and 1080p streaming. you can buy other games, of course, and play them without paying for the service. no limits, no queues. you need the subscription only to access games included with it that you didn't buy otherwise, and for 4k/hdr/5.1.

                but that's normal, people shitting on stadia usually have no goddamn clue what they're talking about.

                Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                Linux is shit.
                it isn't. i'm happy with my manjaro kde and i won't go back to windows 10.

                it's just in a state of constant flux, which requires users to be aware of some traps if they want stable experience. wayland? a trap. glthread on amdgpu? a trap (some software/games can run fine, some can destabilize the kernel - even on my not-so-new kaveri apu). gallium on nvidia? forget it. the list goes on.

                but unlike windows, it's constantly improving. take dx9 on windows for example - its performance went downhill and they won't bother to fix it, and it's not the first directx version microsoft butchered, and won't be the last. in long term, linux is bound to win as a system for playing older-but-not-yet-retro games. it would just benefit if developers would think twice before giving up to the vulkan hype, but hey, it's all opensource. if you don't like existing solutions, you can code one yourself, so from that perspective we can't really complain. it's free.

                Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                My advice to Stadia is to not focus on cloud gaming but make it like a bonus feature. That's what Sony and Microsoft are doing. Open a store on Windows and offer games bought on their store to be usable on Stadia as well as local gaming.
                https://support.google.com/stadia/answer/10248037?hl=en

                with focus on 3rd party developers, that's actually what they're going after - except more focused on subscriptions. in the future i suspect things like EA play to follow, worldwide. for now ubi+ is US-only, but it's most likely licensing-related. still, you can pay for the subscription once and play either on pc or stadia, the difference being that only some (but most popular) games are on stadia.

                it's not about forcing people into streaming, it's about giving them a choice. at some point, gaming hardware will be just too expensive for most, but noone will stop you from paying thousands of dollars to play the witcher 4: ciri's journey at high settings, if that's your wish. why can't you act the same way?

                it's ridiculous, just like fighting over plastic boxes by console fanboys. when i'm saying that streaming is the future, even if i'm right, it doesn't mean you won't be able to play new games on pc - as long as they get released on pc, and between VR and people able to afford any hardware available, there's no reason they wouldn't be. meanwhile you're just on a crusade to prove that streaming has no right to exist. people were comparing cd-audio and mp3 back in the day, and look where we are now. technology improves. sure, if you're after extremely low input latency and/or 144fps, streaming won't cut it, just like aac won't cut it for audiophiles. but the truth is, most people won't notice the difference.

                you would really do yourself a favor if you would check stadia yourself (or better, compare it with geforce now - which also has free tier, although with queues) instead of treating me like an idiot that wouldn't notice 250ms input lag. i know exactly how floaty things get when input lag crosses certain threshold. on stadia i don't notice such a thing. on GFN it was a problem when i was testing it months ago, depending on network conditions and chosen datacenter. for you it may be the opposite, it all depends on location. with GFN you can choose a server, stadia works automatically. stadia works in a browser though, while GFN has windows and android clients. there was some talk about launching it in a browser i think, most likely on apple hardware, but i'm not sure if it works under linux - i was testing it under win10.

                Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                Let the cloud gaming service appeal to customers naturally, instead of it being forced down consumers like how Stadia is doing it now. Stadia is asking consumers to dump their Playstation, Xbox, and PC library to start a whole new library... on the cloud. You know, a service that could ban you and force you to lose all the games you purchased because you called someone a bad word.
                many platform-wide live services to connect players work that way. microsoft can ban you from xbox live as well. i think i prefer that to a bunch of random teenagers that don't know how to behave like a human being. and no, i'm not a fan of "safe spaces" and such bullshit, i'm against SJWs, i got banned from resetera for nothing, and i expect moderators of any such service to act in a reasonable way. but if being unable to jokingly call someone an ass is the price to pay for not having your fun ruined, so be it. it's not about "safe spaces" and such crap, i don't feel offended when encountering some random idiots online, i just want to relax and have fun while playing a game, not having to mute the voice chat because of some kid running his mouth.

                as for "dumping the library", that's just silly. stadia is just another platform. so were many consoles, and even now backward compatibility isn't ideal and one company that does the most to make it work, is microsoft, since you can play games from all generations of xbox on xbox one or xbox series consoles.

                also, the free tier, which you were unaware of, actually feels like the opposite of forcing anyone. i never bought full priced AAA game on pc. i bought a bunch of older games in different promotions, both boxed and on steam. on stadia though i bought shadow of the tomb raider (in a promo), elder scrolls online and cyberpunk. i've played a bit of destiny 2 (had account from GFN times), played a bit of hitman (pro trial), figured that it works way better than expected, bought shadow of the tomb raider (it was cheap), had a ton of fun and decided to bite the bullet and i bought cyberpunk, and later ESO.

                it gives you options, and when you can play something you wouldn't be able to play otherwise - or it would run much worse - it may just be a reason enough. quite a few people got into stadia to play cyberpunk, despite owning consoles. they got it on ps4/xbox one, figured it runs like shit, refunded it, bought it again on stadia. amazingly, they don't complain.

                i wanted to play cyberpunk, but couldn't afford proper hardware - my A8-7600 isn't enough. it doesn't run perfectly on linux either, and since big patches are coming, compatibility can go downhill at any time. my plan was to perhaps buy xbox series s few months down the road, but as it is, i don't need it anymore. i wanna play mass effect remaster down the line, assuming they won't screw it up, but seeing how EA actually supports stadia, there's a chance they'll release it there. we'll see. i don't have enough time for another cyberpunk playthrough - which i've started - anyway, not even mentioning ESO, so it can wait. i would rather buy nintendo switch for some exclusives there.

                there's also the whole aspect of convenience. it's not just about playing anywhere - i use stadia on my pc only. but in a time needed for steam client to launch, i'm already in game on stadia via chromium. without installs and without worrying about compatibility issues.

                Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                If you're not T4rd from HardOCP then that means Google has another bunch of corporate trolls going on forums to feed propaganda. I shit in that thread too, which is odd timing. Do me a favor and tell your superiors what I said they should do. I expect to see a native Linux port of Cyberpunk 2077 sometime this year or we talk more about DXVK and Gallium Eleven. You don't want to see me talk about DXVK and Gallium Nine.
                cut the crap. i never posted on that site, i'm not paid to post here, and i'm not affiliated with google, nor any corpo.

                the only reason we're having this conversation is that my attitude is flawed. i'm posting online to share info that may be valuable to someone, and i should probably end it at that, ignoring stupidity. unfortunately, i tend to get into discussions with people spreading misinformation because of their own ignorance, because i feel it runs opposite to everything i value in places like this.

                you wanna shit on stadia - or anything for that matter - state your opinion, provide arguments based on facts, leave it at that. "streaming will never provide input latency i deem acceptable, which is below such and such value" is fine criticism. "it isn't free", "250ms input latency" and other crap like that proves only that you have no idea what you're talking about.

                same with your throwing random shit at microsoft and xbox, hoping that something sticks. they don't provide sale numbers for xbox for example, because for them xbox is a brand, and that includes consoles, pc and streaming. they don't care that much how many plastic boxes they'll sell, they want people to buy game pass subscription - they've stated that much openly.

                educate yourself before talking out of your ass while accusing people of being paid actors.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by unic0rn View Post
                  except it is. you get pro trial for the first month, giving access to 4k/hdr/5.1 and some games, after which you don't have to keep it, there's free tier, which gives you access to destiny 2 and one other game as i recall, and 1080p streaming. you can buy other games, of course, and play them without paying for the service. no limits, no queues. you need the subscription only to access games included with it that you didn't buy otherwise, and for 4k/hdr/5.1.

                  but that's normal, people shitting on stadia usually have no goddamn clue what they're talking about.
                  You're sounding like a sales man in that post. Also Destiny 2 has been free for a while.

                  it's just in a state of constant flux, which requires users to be aware of some traps if they want stable experience. wayland? a trap. glthread on amdgpu? a trap (some software/games can run fine, some can destabilize the kernel - even on my not-so-new kaveri apu). gallium on nvidia? forget it. the list goes on.
                  For me the issues run much deaper. Stuff that used to work just fine like Citra's Flatpak has been broken since October. Yuzu has also gotten worse as games just don't work on Vulkan, and crashes when I exit. Dolphin's PPA doesn't work for Focal users. I'm a Mint user so a lot of things weren't done for Ubuntu 20.04.

                  Then there's issues with Wine, because Wine still sucks. Now there's too many versions of Wine. Proton tends to get more games running than Wine-Staging but not all games are made to work on Steam. Would be nice if there was a version of Wine that had all the patches that Proton gets. Also, my GCN 1.0 cards can not be updated past Kernel 5.8 if I wanna use AMDGPU for Vulkan support. Even still, a lot of Vulkan stuff is broken for GCN 1.0. This wasn't a problem before.

                  These kind of regressions need to stop happening on Linux.
                  with focus on 3rd party developers, that's actually what they're going after - except more focused on subscriptions.
                  Nobody likes subscriptions. That's why people "borrow" NetFlix and Disney+ plus accounts from friends who pay. This is also why World of Warcraft loses players after the first 2-3 months of an expansion release. People stop playing to avoid the subscription fee.
                  it's not about forcing people into streaming, it's about giving them a choice. at some point, gaming hardware will be just too expensive for most, but noone will stop you from paying thousands of dollars to play the witcher 4: ciri's journey at high settings, if that's your wish. why can't you act the same way?
                  Like I said, people need a choice. Nvidia is surprisingly much better about it by letting people who have a PC game library play it on Geforce Now. It's even free for a limited time anyway. Stadia needs to understand that the only audience that would be interested in their service are people who own no games. If you're a Playstation, Xbox, or PC user with games then you're not dumping them for Stadia. If it's a choice between buying a game on Xbox One or Stadia then that person will choose Xbox One. Good chance that Microsoft will offer you to play those games on their cloud service.

                  Stadia needs a store where people can download games locally like on Steam or Epic. Without it Stadia has no chance.
                  meanwhile you're just on a crusade to prove that streaming has no right to exist. people were comparing cd-audio and mp3 back in the day, and look where we are now. technology improves. sure, if you're after extremely low input latency and/or 144fps, streaming won't cut it, just like aac won't cut it for audiophiles. but the truth is, most people won't notice the difference.
                  That's not the same thing. In fact I believe the reason why so many people move to PC gaming is partly because of input lag. They may not realize it but 60fps gaming does offer lower input latency. So does keyboard and mouse, because those Bluetooth gamepads have some very high latency. Forget 4k, it's all about that 120fps just for the faster reaction time.

                  My belief is that corporations are pushing for cloud gaming because reoccurring revenue and they're willing to bet you won't notice the input lag. While that would work on some people, I think a good deal of people will notice it immediately and rage quit. This isn't the same as mp3 vs flac because those differences aren't very perceptible. This is more like the difference of a diesel car vs a gasoline car.

                  you would really do yourself a favor if you would check stadia yourself (or better, compare it with geforce now - which also has free tier, although with queues) instead of treating me like an idiot that wouldn't notice 250ms input lag. i know exactly how floaty things get when input lag crosses certain threshold. on stadia i don't notice such a thing. on GFN it was a problem when i was testing it months ago, depending on network conditions and chosen datacenter. for you it may be the opposite, it all depends on location. with GFN you can choose a server, stadia works automatically. stadia works in a browser though, while GFN has windows and android clients. there was some talk about launching it in a browser i think, most likely on apple hardware, but i'm not sure if it works under linux - i was testing it under win10.
                  I lose my mind over input lag with wireless devices, so I would probably explode my head with Stadia or Geforce Now. My blood pressure would go sky high using those services. Input lag is just not something I can deal with. I grew up on a Sega Genesis with a CRT TV where there was no such thing as input lag. I cannot adjust to past tense.
                  many platform-wide live services to connect players work that way. microsoft can ban you from xbox live as well. i think i prefer that to a bunch of random teenagers that don't know how to behave like a human being. and no, i'm not a fan of "safe spaces" and such bullshit, i'm against SJWs, i got banned from resetera for nothing, and i expect moderators of any such service to act in a reasonable way. but if being unable to jokingly call someone an ass is the price to pay for not having your fun ruined, so be it. it's not about "safe spaces" and such crap, i don't feel offended when encountering some random idiots online, i just want to relax and have fun while playing a game, not having to mute the voice chat because of some kid running his mouth.
                  My point is that you bought the games and when you get banned you lose all the games in your library. Steam and Epic do it as well, but at least you can download the games. With Xbox and Playstation your games can be on physical media. With cloud gaming you're at the mercy of the corporation. Bad enough that there isn't anyway to reclaim your games if and when Stadia goes out of business, but you now have to worry about calling a kitten retarded in a game because you never know what will cause you to get banned.
                  as for "dumping the library", that's just silly. stadia is just another platform. so were many consoles, and even now backward compatibility isn't ideal and one company that does the most to make it work, is microsoft, since you can play games from all generations of xbox on xbox one or xbox series consoles.
                  I applaud Microsoft for that because that's something that should be standard. For Stadia to work you will need to assume your costumer is willing to leave behind their old library. If you have an Xbox, Playstation, or PC to play games on then why do you need Stadia? So when you don't upgrade your hardware? When upgrading hardware allows you to run your old games better with better frames rates and resolutions?
                  also, the free tier, which you were unaware of, actually feels like the opposite of forcing anyone. i never bought full priced AAA game on pc. i bought a bunch of older games in different promotions, both boxed and on steam. on stadia though i bought shadow of the tomb raider (in a promo), elder scrolls online and cyberpunk. i've played a bit of destiny 2 (had account from GFN times), played a bit of hitman (pro trial), figured that it works way better than expected, bought shadow of the tomb raider (it was cheap), had a ton of fun and decided to bite the bullet and i bought cyberpunk, and later ESO.
                  You pay for games? HAHA piracy. No seriously Playstation's idea of being the Netflix of gaming is better. You get access to all their games not a choice of buying them. Also Sony has a lot of exclusives you can't get anyplace else. Unless you pirate and use emulators which is totally a thing.

                  the only reason we're having this conversation is that my attitude is flawed. i'm posting online to share info that may be valuable to someone, and i should probably end it at that, ignoring stupidity. unfortunately, i tend to get into discussions with people spreading misinformation because of their own ignorance, because i feel it runs opposite to everything i value in places like this.
                  That's exactly why I post. At some point this does get searched and found on Google. Gotta stop the misinformation. My point is that cloud gaming's problem is c = f. You ain't fixing that. What you're fixing is people's acceptance of input lag. You're fixing a social problem, not a technical one.

                  "it isn't free", "250ms input latency" and other crap like that proves only that you have no idea what you're talking about.
                  It isn't free. If Stadia takes off I'm sure that Google would force a monthly fee to access your games, even at 1080p. Geforce Now even states it will kick you off if a paying user logs on. You only get 1 hour as a free user before being kicked off. Even the pricing on Geforce Now is a limited time offer.

                  As for the 250ms, that's literally in the Gamers Nexus video. I've linked it before. It's clear as crystal. Shadow of the Tomb Raider, 4k, running on Chromecast has an input delay of 250ms. If you're running the same game on Chromecast at 720p you'll average around 172ms. Same game on PC is around 60ms and with the Chrome browser with Stadia it's 110ms. Anything over 100ms is considering unplayable in my opinion.


                  same with your throwing random shit at microsoft and xbox, hoping that something sticks. they don't provide sale numbers for xbox for example, because for them xbox is a brand, and that includes consoles, pc and streaming. they don't care that much how many plastic boxes they'll sell, they want people to buy game pass subscription - they've stated that much openly.
                  You didn't research anything? Here you go. I can't give you sales numbers when Microsoft doesn't.
                  educate yourself before talking out of your ass while accusing people of being paid actors.
                  Do everyone a favor and research into the things I've pointed out. I've proven everything I've said with links. There are people who are smarter than me, like Gamers Nexus that will prove you wrong. You just keep trying to get me to try cloud gaming like I'm as slow as you are when it comes to reaction times. I'm sorry but I'm not.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                    You're sounding like a sales man in that post. Also Destiny 2 has been free for a while.
                    no, i'm just saying that stadia is free as it is. you're saying it is not - and that is a lie. you can go to stadia's website, pick up destiny 2 (which, as you've noted, is free) and play it 24/7 without paying a cent, without any queues. show me another service that gives you that. GFN? time limits and queues to the moon, not even mentioning input lag and other technical issues like random performance.

                    Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                    It isn't free. If Stadia takes off I'm sure that Google would force a monthly fee to access your games, even at 1080p. Geforce Now even states it will kick you off if a paying user logs on. You only get 1 hour as a free user before being kicked off. Even the pricing on Geforce Now is a limited time offer.
                    oh, so which is it? "it isn't free" or "i'm sure it won't be free later on"?

                    it is free and there are no plans to change that. it WAS subscription-only, but they've changed it - and that's the reason a bunch of trolls ran with the first thing they've heard one year ago and they keep repeating it to this day, despite the fact it's no longer true since quite a while.

                    GFN is GFN, it is not stadia. on stadia there are no performance variations, no queues and so on. nvidia treats GFN like some experiment, providing very limited server resources and as a result, their VMs are shared between players. what's worse, they vary in configuration. what kind of experience you'll get on GFN depends on which VM you'll get, with which GPU, and how loaded the CPU is due to someone already playing there. but as usual, you haven't tried it, so you have no clue.

                    Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                    Nobody likes subscriptions.
                    noone forces you to pay for them. well, unless you want 4k streaming with hdr and 5.1 audio. as far as games are concerned, you can buy everything separately. it's just so happens that it may end up being cheaper to buy a subscription for a month, buy some games using subscription-only discounts, then dump the subscription. that isn't stadia specific, game pass is the same in that regard, and there are others.

                    and in the end, considering game prices these days, game pass subscribers would disagree with you.

                    Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                    I grew up on a Sega Genesis with a CRT TV where there was no such thing as input lag.
                    there's ALWAYS some input lag.

                    the thing is, either it's noticeable, or it isn't, and that depends on the person, game and framerate, as well as the hardware, OS and so on.

                    Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                    If you have an Xbox, Playstation, or PC to play games on then why do you need Stadia? So when you don't upgrade your hardware? When upgrading hardware allows you to run your old games better with better frames rates and resolutions?
                    tell that to playstation 4 owners, trying to buy playstation 5 since the release.

                    heck, lets say you wanna build a gaming pc that will last a few years. midrange rtx cards (xx60) are an obvious choice, due to dlss. rtx 3060? starts at 810 usd here, but out of stock. rtx 2060? 760 usd and above. the most popular kinda-recent gpu in steam statistics, gtx 1650, starts at 340 usd - and is also out of stock. those prices are with vat included, but still, gtx 1650 in a region of rtx 3060 msrp, and you're asking "why not just upgrade your hardware"? some people are reasonable with their money, that's why.

                    Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                    Gotta stop the misinformation.
                    stop posting, that would bring the best results.

                    Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                    As for the 250ms, that's literally in the Gamers Nexus video. I've linked it before. It's clear as crystal. Shadow of the Tomb Raider, 4k, running on Chromecast has an input delay of 250ms. If you're running the same game on Chromecast at 720p you'll average around 172ms. Same game on PC is around 60ms and with the Chrome browser with Stadia it's 110ms. Anything over 100ms is considering unplayable in my opinion.
                    or you can live in antarctica and use satellite internet, or you can have cat fur in your overheating router, and your latency will suck as well.

                    did i say it can't reach 250ms in bad conditions? i suspect it may be an actual reason why google discontinued chromecast ultra, since as you've noted this time, in the chrome browser it's much better.

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knmIM8rq560 - 45ms over xbox one x in the chrome browser. assuming 60ms as a baseline on xbox one x, that's in the ballpark of 110ms, so more or less what GN says. two details though, 100ms isn't 250ms, and second, this video is from april 2020, and GN's is even older. meaning, you could have 100-110ms input latency on stadia over a year ago.

                    exact numbers of course depend on the game - and the game itself has its own input lag, which may vary between platforms, so to get accurate results one would have to compare increase in input lag between stadia and another platform in several games, then average the results.

                    but lets assume for a moment that nothing has changed for the past year, and that the input latency on stadia when playing in a browser is the same, and that the average increase over local console is 45ms (assuming identical network conditions - unlikely, since stadia got more servers since then). rendering single frame at 30fps takes 33ms. that's one and a half frame delay at 30fps, or 3 frames at 60fps. you get one frame of delay by switching from double to triple buffering alone.

                    it's not ideal, but most people wouldn't notice it - and again, that's not taking into account any improvements on stadia's servers during past year, and there certainly were some. amount of stadia servers worldwide matters as well - the more servers there are, the higher the chance you'll get one closer to you, reducing input lag. as i've said earlier, my network latency to stadia was in the ballpark of 60ms in the beginning. one month later it dropped to 30ms. they are constantly improving things, that's a fact.

                    and if you think those values are outrageous and noone in their right mind would be able to tolerate them:
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqMqeuwxwVg
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZlH0jYAJE0

                    2 frames of input latency (or 4 at 60fps) are nothing new. the average input lag in gears 5 on xbox series x (with widely acclaimed input latency optimizations) is 55ms in 60fps mode, reaching 64ms max. that is considered a GOOD result. anything close to 100-110ms won't be noticeable by most unless they're comparing things side by side, simply because most of the games they've played had input latency above 70ms anyway.

                    rendering a frame alone takes time - engine has 16ms to render a frame at 60fps, or 33ms at 30fps. compare that with the numbers above and take into account network latency. if i don't feel input lag on stadia, meaning it's most likely within a frame at 30fps, and my network latency to stadia is 30ms, which is - surprise surprise - almost a frame at 30fps, then the network latency is the only overhead, and that's assuming negative latency isn't at work - perhaps the additional latency is lower than 30ms, i don't have the hardware to measure it. all i know is i don't notice it.

                    and btw, i'm using wired keyboard and mouse, i was rocketjumping in quake decades ago, so when i say input latency isn't a problem when landing headshots, i mean it. i'm not a casual player.

                    maybe, just maybe, instead of masturbating yourself with numbers, you should just try it, because you clearly didn't think it through what those numbers actually mean, nor have you considered that things got better since then.

                    Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                    You didn't research anything? Here you go. I can't give you sales numbers when Microsoft doesn't.
                    dude, you really need to learn to read.

                    what i've said - that you've quoted:
                    Originally posted by unic0rn
                    same with your throwing random shit at microsoft and xbox, hoping that something sticks. they don't provide sale numbers for xbox for example, because for them xbox is a brand, and that includes consoles, pc and streaming. they don't care that much how many plastic boxes they'll sell, they want people to buy game pass subscription - they've stated that much openly.
                    article you've linked:
                    "We continue to see strong growth with time spent on Xbox Live, and look forward to bringing more unprecedented experiences on Xbox One, Windows 10 PC and mobile."
                    that article is almost 2 years old, and even back then they were talking about xbox consoles, windows 10 and mobile in a single sentence, bringing it together under xbox live umbrella. watch interviews with the xbox team from 2020, regarding game pass future. it's all about that subscription, and "mobile" means xcloud streaming, which is part of game pass ultimate.

                    that's why they don't care that much about console sales. they don't need to sell more consoles, they need to sell more subscriptions. there's a reason Spencer said that google and amazon are their main competitor, not sony. it's not about xbox vs playstation, it's about xcloud vs stadia and luna.

                    "yadda yadda sony sold moar plastic boxes" matters only to playstation fanboys. microsoft couldn't care less.

                    Originally posted by Dukenukemx View Post
                    Do everyone a favor and research into the things I've pointed out. I've proven everything I've said with links. There are people who are smarter than me, like Gamers Nexus that will prove you wrong. You just keep trying to get me to try cloud gaming like I'm as slow as you are when it comes to reaction times. I'm sorry but I'm not.
                    what have you proven exactly? you're constantly trying to twist facts, switch goalposts and you keep talking out of your ass. you're lying through your teeth while calling it "fighting disinformation".

                    do everyone a favor and stop trolling. either way, i won't be replying to you anymore.
                    Last edited by unic0rn; 11 March 2021, 12:58 PM.

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